Tuesday, December 27, 2005

The Assassins' Gate (p. 87)

"My most heated and confounding arguments over the war occurred when there was no one else around. I would run down the many compelling reasons why a war would be unwise, only to find at the end that Saddam was still in power, tormenting his people and defying the world. The administration's war was not my war--it was rushed, dishonest, unforgivably partisan, and destructive of alliances--but objecting to the authors and their methods didn't seem reason enough to stand in the way. One doesn't get one's choice of wars. To give my position a label, I belonged to the tiny, insignificant camp of ambivalently prowar liberals, who supported a war by about the same margin that the voting public had supported Al Gore."

Although I ultimately came down against the war, my reasoning was almost identical to Packer's, and I have infinitely more respect for him and pro-invasion liberals like him than I have for the strident, dogmatic sector of the anti-war crowd.

As I've said before, ultimately I came to think that the methods and intentions of the administration did matter--that their divisive and anti-democratic (and anti-Democratic) lies were too harmful to American democracy and international law to be supported. If we had had an even minimally honest, minimally competent administration moving judiciously towards a humanitarian intervention, I would have been an eager supporter. But that, of course, was not the case.

One of the best things about Packer's book so far is that he does a good job of conveying how agonizing it was to be a liberal interventionist in the lead-up to the war. I had nothing but contempt for people who dismissed Saddam's crimes and didn't even feel the urge to take him out. It's hard to imagine how cold and heartless--or out of touch with reality--one would have to be to not even feel the allure of that possibility.

On the other hand, knowing that conservatives weren't really moved by humanitarian concerns, and having come to distrust them in large part for that reason, liberal hawks suspected that we shouldn't be allying ourselves with them. We suspected--and it turns out that we were right--that they could not be trusted to do the job right.

But in the end, as I've said, I opposed the war in large part because I thought that America had to put its collective foot down. We had to show that we could not be lied to and frightened into submission and herded like sheep. The actual cost to American democracy was, I thought, too great. It was too high a price to pay to purchase merely potential democracy in Iraq.

Well, you've heard that all before.

Just go read Packer!


Blogger rilkefan said...

"who supported a war by about the same margin that the voting public had supported Al Gore."

E.g., 500,000 votes?

"One doesn't get one's choice of wars."

I.e., blurgel-urgel.

A friend writes, "My neighbor across the street is organizing a raid on a jewelry store. I want a necklace for my wife, and though I don't approve of my neighbor or his methods, that doesn't seem reason enough to stand in the way. Oh, except I'm not so much not standing in the way as cheering him on. You don't get your choice of raids."

I have infinitely more respect for my friend and his reasoned decision than I have for the strident, dogmatic sector of the anti-pillage crowd.

2:22 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Yea, this sounds like it's a tailor made book that pats you on the back and tells you that you were right after all. Congratulations, Winston!

Kind of funny how one can lump everyone in the anti-war crowd into one camp and then collectively throw them off the truck. Kind of reminds me of a guy in a foxhole during WWII complaining about how those Frenchman smell and how much he hates them while he's getting shelled by the Germans and they're his only hope. And I just love the last post about how no one will ever know the reason for invading Iraq - gotta just love going to war for a reason that no one can determine. History is going to be really kind to that logic.

Really, Winston. Look around at the results of this war (hey, congratulations! It's a theocracy!). It isn't a complete and utter cluster f*ck simply because Bush is incompetent - no, this was a group effort. It was number 567 on the list of top things that need to be done to make the world a safer place. Only a *fool* targets the wolf at the edge of the woods instead of the wolf in the cart. A wolf that's still there and metastasizing (to mix metaphors).

What you seem to be buying into is that all - and I do mean *all* - the anti-war crowd, regardless of their political pedigree or beliefs for why we shouldn't get into this war, were simply *lucky* in predicting the outcome of this war almost to a T. It seems like your position is simply that the only reason they got it right is because they hate everything Bush does.

Quite frankly, I find that belief intellectually bankrupt and bereft of actual analysis - simply a knee jerk reaction to one's own confirmation bias - smart people believe stupid things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. And not having *any* reason what so ever is probably one of the most non-smart reasons I can think of. Hating the people who were right is a close second.

The cruise missile left can't come up with reasons for why this war started, why they supported it and why they really, really hate the anti-war part of your titular party - but man, they hate that they were right. Pissed 'em off something fierce.

The cruise missile left is just really, really skilled at defending their beliefs - and Assassin's Gate is a classic example of this.

2:50 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

"I had nothing but contempt for people who dismissed Saddam's crimes and didn't even feel the urge to take him out."

Yep, all two of them. Ramsey Clarke and, uhh, well no doubt someone prominent and non-medicated.

"how agonizing it was to be a liberal interventionist in the lead-up to the war."

It may have been agonizing to be a strident, dogmatic liberal interventionist, but for me the only agony was knowing that my policy position was being coopted by a cynical incompetent admin with the help of confused, naive, stupid, or dogmatic members of my group.

Say I'm in favor of surgery for back pain. Some people advocate exercise, weight loss, and assorted behavioral therapies, but it's a policy question and I have my view. I know a guy in pain - it's really hurting his job performance, and his family really needs the paycheck. He's doing the other stuff and the problem is in check for now, but it would be great to see the problem cured at its root. And as it happens there's a doctor eager to do the operation. His name's Frist. Some say, but he's a heart doctor! And something of a partisan quack! And he used to oppose this sort of treatment! And he scheduled surgery based on his hospital's quarterly report and the impending golf season! To which stridency I reply, "One doesn't get one's choice of operation."

And then afterwards: So the patient may walk again without physical therapists holding his arms. He may even be pain-free when the incision and secondary infections heal and the unavoidable nerve damage is compensated for. And we'll worry about the bills later.

And then: I just read this great book about the operation and how agonizing the decision to do it was for us back-surgery supporters. It pretty much agrees with everything I think, though I finally came out on the no-knife side this time. It gets into all the reasons back pain sucks and how badly Frist bungled things, the point maybe being that the author was right to have been in favor of the intervention, since if it had been done better the results surely would have been better and maybe even good, and anyway things still may turn out ok. And like Kevin Drum says, the knee-jerk anti-operation folks need to get over themselves.

I think you need to write this argument out in one of your syllogism posts, because I agree with azael about a lack of actual analysis on your part here.

3:20 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Winston, I think you'd benefit from reading this post at Crooked Timber about the Packer book:

There were two particular arguments that D. Dennett(?) used prewar:
1. Every major project the Bush administration has undertaken has ended in a disaster.
2. When people use lies to justify something, it is probably because they cannot use the truth as justification.

9:54 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

sorry forgot the link

9:55 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Come to think of it all the crooked timber posts on the Packer book are must reads.

9:58 PM  
Blogger matthew christman said...


I've been thinking a lot about the liberal hawk position and how to respond to it in a non-ideological way, because I've got significant ideological problems with the point of view, but I know that such arguments don't really mean much in this kind of discussion.

So I've boiled the ideology out of the myriad reasons that I was completely opposed to the war before it started, and phrase it in ethical terms. I think that military intervention in another country for a humanitarian goal is justified in only two instances: 1. during genocidal emergencies (Rwanda, Darfur) and 2. in cases where humanitarianism is the SOLE or at very least FULLY PRIMARY motivation for intervention. I use this formula for a simple reason: "military intervention" is a nice, clinical word for "war" and "war" is really short for "massive, largely-undirected assault against soft, vulnerable human tissue with bullets, mines, cluster bombs, high explosive shells, gellied gasoline, white phosporous, depleated uranium, and fire...lots and lots of fire." We like to think that all this white-hot metal flying through the air is magically directed towards bad people, but in reality, it tends to shred innocent and guilty flesh with equal efficiency. I don't really care if that sounds melodramatic, because it's this sort of thinking that seems to completely dissapear from lib-hawk discussions of the use of "force." The terminology is always clinical, the assumption being that, since the war would be fought for good purposes, it would somehow be less horrible of a war. That's just incorrect. If we keep in mind exactly what war entails, we will, necessarily, become more relucant to use it, and more likely, if we're of the "lib-hawk" persuasion, to consider applications that could result in unamibigious good in the world. Such thinking would automatically disqualify something like the Iraq war: I mean, knocking over a tin pot dictator whose greatest crimes were over a decade old instead of, say intervening in the war in the Congo that killed somewhere north of two MILLION people during the late ninties (and where the fuck were Packer and co. on THAT one?)?

And because of the innate awfulness of war, a humanitarian intervention would have to be executed for exclusively humanitarian motivations. That excludes something like the Iraq war, in which humanitarian concerns were rarely stressed until after the WMD failed to turn up: it was discussed in national security terms almost exclusivel. That should have been enough, right there, to make lib-hawks reject the war. In order to make a "humanitarian" war worthwhile (that is, for it to save and improve more lives than it would kill and ruin), such a war would have to be fought by humanitarian principals. In effect, you'd have to fight with one hand tied behind your back: no carpet bombing, no razing of cities via remote artillery, no fucking cluster bombs. If you're fighting with realpolitik motives foremost in your planning, then you end up cutting corners that get a lot of people killed, thus degrading the war from a humanitarian point of view. If you're say, more interested in preserving the integrity of a countries oil infrastructure than its people (saving the Oil Ministry in Baghdad while letting the rest of the city burn) or, say, validating a half-cocked theory of small force invasion (Rumsfeld), you end up ignoring the whole "rebuilding" thing, the thing that is supposed to improve the lives of the people you bombed and validate the invasion as a humanitarian undertaking. Taking any war that it offered to you by a pack of demonstrably corrupt and cynical profiteers because it offers you a far-outside chance to feel the thrill of vicarious moral triumphalism does not constitute an ethical approach to the use of force.

11:40 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

Remarkably, I think almost everything in matthew christman's comment is wrong.

12:15 AM  
Blogger Azael said...

Count me in that camp as well. I'm not one to believe in unambiguous good, and I think that even in humanitarian wars, things get really, really ugly - as they say, it is Hell. Case by case for me.

In any event, wars fought by known idiots surely have only one outcome possible - regardless of the motives. And clearly, we're seeing the ripening fruit of such in today's headlines.

Myself, I think that the cruise missile left was simply blinded by good intentions and tried to use Bush's inevitable drive to war to do something good. However, adding sewage to wine makes it taste like sewage. Remarkably, adding wine to sewage has the same result. And it's a pity that the cruise missile left couldn't see that before the fact when taking a solid stance against the war actually made a difference (rather than deciding right when the war was being launched that it wasn't a good idea after all).

However, what I find pretty much inexcusable is the pretensions that only the cruise missile left was noble and good in this effort and all those against the war are pathetic scum to be excised from the party or we'll all go down in electoral flames. That's just simply a lunatic's bargain.

3:09 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Jewelry stores, smelly Frenchmen, wolves, back surgery, ripening fruit, and my nominee for elegant metaphor of the year---adding sewage to wine.

Man, there oughta be a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Analogies.

4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

do the job right - is this a sense without a possible referent?

4:50 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

What is this "cruise missile left" you like to refer to, azael?

TVD, I bet the original analogy was not "adding sewage to" but "pissing in".

5:25 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Here's the origin of the tag Cruise Missie Left. I started using it rather than "liberal hawk" when my own ShorDurPerSav (Chun the Unavoidable) pointed it out to me in a comment. Chun is far more of what WS would call the "rabid left" than I, but I still think the title is much more apt than the 'hawk' label. They're more of the remote control, sanitized war type than the "rip 'em to pieces and feast on their flesh" hawk types. I certainly don't buy into all the pejoratives associated with the descriptions, but the critics wielding the phrase are spot on with their characterizations - just mho.

In any event, I must say : WOW! Things are getting pretty bad for the CML. Check out this Fox interview of Wesley Clark saying there was no case for war. Funny how he literally uses all the arguments of those rabid antiwar left.

Question is, will he be removed from the respect list?

10:14 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

Perhaps you meant to linkto this (the top google hit)? If Michael Berube is part of the CML, they can't be that bad. If you agree with the above link that "[t]he [true] left considers the United States a dangerous and aggressive imperial power", then I think we're going to disagree a great deal.

1:08 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...


Am in nyc without easy net access (left my laptop at home), and only read the first 5 posts or so, but:

Man, some really, really lame arguments there.

Seriously, guys, I suggest:

1. Re-reading my post
2. taking a deep breath and evaluating your own arguments.

More in a few days when i get back.

The Packer book is still rocking the house, incidentally.

10:50 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I bet the original analogy was not "adding sewage to" but "pissing in".

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up, Rilkefan. That would take us from simple cruelty to outright torture. Besides the offense to aesthetics, I do not know what the "wine" could possibly be.

See, I've been giving the Cruise Missle Left a lot more credit than the Bloodless Sanctions Left (and, it should be said, Right), who killed somewhere between 20,000 (UNICEF) and a million and a half (Ramsey Clark) innocent Iraqi women and children.

Likely more than Bush killed with his war (30,000 [?], including lots of bad guys), not to mention the 300,000 slaughtered by that Saddam fellow.

1:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Winston, I respectfully disagree very strongly. I took your advice, and I re-read this part:

?Although I ultimately came down against the war, my reasoning was almost identical to Packer's, and I have infinitely more respect for him and pro-invasion liberals like him than I have for the strident, dogmatic sector of the anti-war crowd."

I was anti-war, apparently you agree with me in the end, but only after you had righteous feelings of punishment, fire, and invasion that were only set aside upon self-reflection, a character trait unique to you and not to anit-war pussies like me. So you agree with me now, but you don't like it, and you are careful to say that you agreed with me before the war started,, but it wasn't because I was right, it was because I was strident, and the fact that I wasn't pro-invasion before I wasn't means that I didn't think seriously about this war (which, by the way, has killed a lot of people and cost a lot of money).

I like blow-jobs, fast cars, guns, and blowing shit up (amongs other "manly" pursuits). I don't like war and shredding flesh from bones, regardless of who is on the receiving end. We can do better as a species. I don't like terrorists, and yes, they do frighten me, but if I get killed by a terrorist, I will end my days with my wits about me and my sense of dignity and freedom intact. War is almost always wrong, and I am not a genius because I figured from the get-go that Iraq was a cock-up with no reason, no plan, and no purpose. The incompetence was a sympton, not the cause. Folks who salivate and get wood thinking about killing people have issues, if you know what I mean.

As far as I am concerned, I skipped the bullshit and got to the point...this war was fucking stupid, a giant mistake, and its human and other costs were, are, and continue to be horrendous. This thought process, according to me, makes me smarter than your normal "interventionist" who, as far as I can tell, opposes war with his mind, but still likes the cock-stroking titillation of thinking about blowing up truly bad guys.

So forgive me for being more than a bit disgusted that you, along with Marshall Whitmann and others (and I apologize if that grouping isn't fair) seem to feel the need to tout your "ass kicking" credentials while at the same time actually knowing in your heart that strident anti-war pussies like myself have been right from the start, and will continue to be. Iraq is not Kosovo, it is not WWII, it isn't even the fucking war on terror, which is much more mundane, much to the war-pornographers dismay.

As far as taking out bad guys. It is fun to think about, it is hard to do. Just like most things that mature adults like myself figured out when we were, oh, about 19, 23 at the latest (when Cindy Crawford got married, or insert whatever fantasy-killer you choose).

I have responded to your emotional outburst with my own. The ball is in your court, and I hope you take this in the spirit of lively exchange. All personal attacks, actual or implied, are of course meant to further discussion, and that is the truth.

3:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What the liberal hawks ignore, and Abject Funk addresses, is the probability side of the decision matrix.

Specifically, we are treated to justification for the war based on the best possible outcome of fighting vs. the worst possible outcome of not doing it.

Sure, a harmonious, western-style democracy with respect for human rights and an ability to provide for its people would be a boon for the Iraqi people. And sure if Saddam were to begin a killing spree akin to the crushing of the 1991 uprising it would be a tragedy for the Iraqi people.

Nobody doubts the goodness and badness of these two modalities.

However, what Abject Funk brings up is the CERTAINTY (or near certainty - certainly widely predicted) that the war was going to result in the deaths of thousands of innocents, the stimulation of Al Qaeda and the alienation of our allies. Whereas the counterfactual conjecture of continued life (at least for the time being) with Saddam in power would have been at least tolerable - or less bad than the alternative.

As far as humanitarianism goes, the cost-benefit analysis is far more attractive in the cases of a Rwanda or a Darfur, both because of the lower probability of ancillary damage to US interests and the better likelihood of a satisfactory outcome. This latter point is true because the alternative fate of the innocents in the conflict was near certain death anyway. In other words, I'm pretty confident that the victims of genocide or ethnic cleansing were at least as likely to be killed by mass murder as they were to be in a military intervention. This cannot be said of the Iraqi people before our invasion.

1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trouve dans cette dynamite satisfaire et loisir tout ce que celles-ci en cherchant !!
video porno telechargement gratuit jeune star du porno dvd porno gratuit sex porno hard video gratuite photo hard porno porno marocain gratuit film amateur alsacien porno film porno pamela anderson video porno gratuite telecharger porno hard gratuit regarder film porno video porno gratuir gay black porno actrice porno nu galerie porno film porno classe x video jour porno porno jeune gay video porno black voir video porno gratuite actrice de film porno video porno de lesbienne gratuite recherche actrice porno extrait toute video porno gratuit video et jeu porno gratuit porno bizarre extrait film porno zoo aria giovanni sex porno mangas hentai porno image porno agadir image femme porno video photo porno gratuit sexe porno asiatique photo porno gratuite couple bi porno gode arabe black porno video porno photo gratuite arabe porno grosse femme black image porno etudiante nu photo simpsons porno gratuit porno hard free kids sex histoire porno extrait video porno francais telechargement jeu porno italian sex porno video mangas porno telecharger free porno blog image gratuit porno porno star hard free long samplers porno hard film porno extrait gratuite flim porno fr video francais gratuit porno video ligne amateur porno video casting porno extrait de film porno asiatique video porno x movie xxx porno gratuit clip porno brasile casting sexy porno doujin porno francais dragon ball vieille femme porno gratui x men porno skyblog porno amateur gratuit movie x porno voir clip porno porno casting x video amateur gratuite porno liste blog porno porno org gratuit porno xxx gratuit extrait and porno blog video porno skyblog sur porno galerie homme gratuit porno gay beaucoup porno gratui filmes porno gratuit chat porno gratuit monstration porno gratuit sex porno clip video porno galerie sous jupe photo porno grosse femme lesbienne porno hot photo porno homme gay gratuite porno gratuit grosse annuaire gay porno film et photo amateur porno gratuit gay boy video porno femme mature sexe porno cul femme nu porno archive photo gay porno photo porno galerie film porno divx porno mature grosse galerie de photo porno gay film divx porno video sex porno lesbienne lilms porno regardac gratuis porno gay mature porno hentai site groups.msn.com sexo porno com recherche acteur porno gay sexe porno gratuis porno gratuit femme video porno lolita porno camera cacher agadir porno lolita russe accessoire pour instrument de musique parole jean jacques goldman musique puisse part mv30 instrument musique partition de musique de kyo musique du film la soupe aux chou musique film dis oui separation parole et musique ampli basse instrument de musique partition musique flute telechargement musique et film telechargement musique mp3 gratuit instrument de musique arabe transformer musique en mp3 partition musique folklorique polonaise telecharger gratuit musique mp3 partition musique classique parole de musique anglais musique gratuit mp3 musique et partition musique film d horreur musique parole parole musique bob marley telechargement gratuit musique film musique du film pour la peau d un flic partition musique classique telecharger telechargement de musique mp3 gratuite ecoute de musique de film partition musique de la chanson le chiffon rouge parole musique bsb telecharge musique mp3 fm transmetteur ipod mp3 cd minidisc radium mp3 codec codec mp3 free winamp converter mp3 to midi telecharger encoder mp3 conversion mp3 cd audio cd audio en mp3 sonnerie portable rap mp3 mp3 cle usb 2 to mp3 converter cle mp3 usb sonnerie mp3 austin codec mp3 lame meilleur prix sue lecteur mp3 creative creer des cd mp3 converter to mp3 freeware mp3 encoder autoradio mp3 usb et lecteur carte sd mmc cd 652usmp roadstar extraire cd en mp3 mp3 telecharger gratuit britney spears pilote cle usb mp3 lecteur mp3 1go cle usb autoradio mp3 lecteur dvd port usb mp3 cd maker lecteur mp3 cle usb 512 mo zouk mp3 telecharger gratuit telecharger convertisseur mp3 gratuit lecteur mp3 a bon prix codec lecteur mp3 mp3 cle usb 256 baladeur mp3 encodeur mp3 mp3 et wav convertir dvd en mp3 wav to mp3 converter mp3 musique createur converter wav mp3 typhoon lecteur mp3 wma mp3 wav converter convertir music mp3 baladeur mp3 256mo encodeur encodeur mp3 wav decodeur mp3 wav encodeur decodeur mp3 wav musique son mp3 gratuit convertir ram en mp3 jvc autoradio mp3 convertir fichier midi en mp3 kenwood kenwood autoradio kenwood mp3 wav mp3 encoder autoradio adaptateur baladeur mp3 encoder wma mp3 achat musique mp3 alt wav mp3 wma ogg converter v3.3 lecteur mp3 autoradio accessoire son convert wav mp3 convertire mp3 en wav convertir mpg mp3 autoradio cd mp3 occasion convertir un fichier mp3 en wav encodeur fichier en mp3 chargement musique mp3 digital and mp3 and player mp3 player tool autoradio pioneer cd mp3 autoradio cd mp3 usb ca 5555 firmware update neo mp3 player simply key telecharger logiciel compression mp3 achat baladeur mp3 512 mo autoradio cd aiwa cdc mp3 mp3 media player codec mp3 pour windows media player autoradio cd mp3 cdx r3300 sonnerie mp3 newport beach compatible download free mp3 autoradio cd mp3 avec syntoniseur rds autoradio sony cd mp3 mp3 usb 2 calogero mp3 free download compression de fichier mp3 convertir and wav and en and mp3 convertir le format mp3 en wav compression wma en mp3 comment changer real player mp3 baladeur lecteur cd mp3 autoradio cd pioneer 7400 cd mp3 ecran 3d auto and radio and mp3 mp3 player dvr free recorder mp3 radio blaupunkt autoradio cd mp3 blaupunkt audio baladeur cd mp3 porno gratuit a telecharger telecharger gratuit emule telecharger yahoo messenger telecharger livre gratuit telecharger gratuitement music mp3 emule video telecharger film gratuit divx telecharger jeu and gratuit and a and telecharger comment telecharger musique telecharger musique sur emule logiciel pour telecharger divx telecharger musique sur internet telecharger gratuitement msn 7.5 jeu de tarot a telecharger telecharger codec divx telecharger musique gratuite mangas emule telecharger point com telecharger les sims 2 telecharger film dragon ball z telecharger msn 7.2 film gay a telecharger telecharger msn 7.0 plus gratuit telecharger msn plus 3 gratuit objet pour les sims 2 a telecharger telechargement video film msn plus telecharger gratuitement telechargement musique et film shareaza graver telecharger gratuitement kazaa ecouter musique sans telecharger sims 2 telecharger telecharger version 7.5 msn objet telecharger gratuitement sims 2 telecharger gratuitemant kazaa telecharger gratuitement shareaza telecharger gratuit le jeu sims 2 telecharger sonnerie animal telecharger antivirus avast coiffure telecharger sims 2 telecharger gratuitement msn version 7.5 telechargement film emule de telechargement de film et musique gratuit video sex a telecharger gratuitement telecharger extrait video porno habit sims 2 telecharger jeu de carte a telecharger gratuitement telecharger gratuit kazaa kazaa lite 01net telecharger music telecharger mp3 gratuit telecharger gratuit film dvd francais telecharger msn beta 7 fr telecharger dracula film x telecharger and musique and gratuitement and telecharger music telecharger nero 6 gratuitement telecharger chanson abdelhadi belkhayat gratuitement telecharger gratuitement musique format mp3 telecharger logo pour telephone telecharger plug in java tm 1.4.0 03 telecharger steam fr telecharger emule gratuit fr telecharger nouvelle version emule gratuitement musique rap telecharger gratuitement telecharger matrix audio dvd logo a telecharger gratuit telecharger graveur dvd multimedia.ftpk.net telecharger msn 7 5 beta version francaise gratuit logiciels.htm telecharger logo et musique sur portable motorola telecharger java virtual machine 3809 mature fuck hard mature mure salope photo gratuite photo de blacks mature mature porn x free movies free porn movies mature femme nu et mature photo mec mature nu homme mature nu mature and nu mature video site groups.msn.com mature fuck dogs photo male mature gay nu nylon porn and mature homme mature nu gay sexe first anal mature free video mature fuck group mature black cock femme mature grosse sexe black mature black cock mature mature and video photo nu de femme mature sex lesbienne mature belle africaine mature mure mature histoire coquin couple mature photo porno femme mure galerie mure gratuite sexe photo femme mure mature in lingerie mature big busty blonde best mature movies site pute mure rencontre avec femme mure amatrice mure lesbienne mure mature babe asian photo femme mure nu gratuit asian big tits mature femme mure x sexe mature femme russe mature ladies pussy beurette mure teen and mature movies logiciel architecte 2d logiciel fichier mix logiciel gestion stock alerte sms logiciel mac jardin logiciel and mailing and fax and gratuit logiciel multi webcam logiciel pour cree de la music logiciel architecte freeware telecharger logiciel micro mix logiciel telecharger plus vite logiciel faire part de mariage logiciel 3d free installation logiciel webcam logiciel 3d en francais logiciel architecte studio expert cad 2005 gratuit logiciel k tv logiciel gestion webcam logiciel de creation 3d logiciel et pilote webcam creative logiciel fichier partage telechargement gratuit dernier logiciel partage fichier logiciel windows xp gratuit logiciel and francais and reparation and windows immobilier logiciel logiciel gratuis cao crack logiciel gestion immobiliere logiciel msn plus logiciel voir m a bloquer msn messenger logiciel pour telechargement de la musique gratuitement telechargement de logiciel de gravure gratuit logiciel architecture amenagement 3d logiciel gravure diaporama frontpage 2003 microsoft logiciel cd rom logiciel de cartographie gratuit son logiciel logiciel diaporama musique logiciel facturation garage auto logiciel ciel solution logiciel de gravure vcd gratuit logiciel saisie math logiciel pour gerer son compte logiciel ciel gestion logiciel gratuit diaporama logiciel creation gif gratuit logiciel adi math logiciel crack mot passe logiciel adi anglais logiciel langue anglais chatte mure femme mure sexy sexe le gros cul de femme mure mure nu gratuit foto femme mure gratuit femme mure et mature femme mure nu tres mure avec jeune non payant photo sexe mure creme and recette and mure jeune femme mure sex gratuit mure amatrice gratuite mure vagin femme nu mure libertin mure confiture gelee mure tavail porno pours femme mure et adresse galerie femme mure gratuit galerie mure gratuit sex et porno femme mure gratuit video mure salope vieille charrue femme mure mature .com mure gratuit .com femme mure erotique gratuite 48 54 ans photo sex gratuit vieille femme porno picture vieille femme video porno tres vieille femme vieille chatte en chaleur photo de grosse vieille vieille salope .com vieille maman mature vieille petasses folie sex vieille cochon porno photo and and vieille and porno sex vieille pute porno vieille grosse vieille chatte salope vieille ecran telecharger vieille femme pute sexe photo femme mure vieille gratuit gros sein vieille pute gratuit sexe vieille femme gratuit rencontre avec vieille femme fond d ecran en vieille femme mature vieille old mature ladies mature facial galerie histoire baise mature illustree nasty mature pic mature busty cum mature free sample mature fat ass mature nl movies sexe mature femme russe moms mature galerie photo pornographique femme mature galerie mature nylon fuck her virgin ass mature pic gallery mature babe asian xxl femme lesbienne mature pilues sur chatte mature sex lady lady mature amateur mature ladies boys mature and plumper and galerie virgins first fuck gratuit belle femme mature mature sex pics paradise movies mature mature mom cum splendid hotel ile rousse teen virgin vagina free virgin porn trailors lesbian porn virgin real virgin defloration girl hot virgin extra oliva virgin leo body naked virgin billet bateau nice ile rousse automotive island u.s virgin image rousse nu station les rousse russian sample virgin russian virgin porn young virgins getting fucked chalet vacances loisir rousse mary picture spanish virgin belle rousse nu virgin touch hentai doda i pl site strong virgin tiny tit virgin asian virgin young grosse cochon gratuit image de grosse femme nu baise avec des grosse bite grosse and bite grosse salope defoncee grosse cochon grosse cochon 18ans grosse lesbienne plus grosse bite 17 ans grosse chien photo femme laides et grosse belle grosse salope photo grosse chatte poilue gratuite grosse x grosse cochon sur bite grosse and pute tres grosse bite grosse poitrine celebrite grosse cul vieille grosse suceuse de grosse queue grosse pute arabe grosse femme toute nu jeune grosse cochon grosse chatte xxx cul de grosse salope sexe grosse fesse grosse cochon 91 vieille mature grosse gratuit salope grosse gratuit grosse et grande femme poilue photo gratuite concours grosse queu veille et grosse mamie sexe photo de mec a grosse bite sexe grosse gratuit peau grosse caisse peintes sexe gratuit grosse grosse bite pd black sexe grosse sein grosse queu poilu gratuit de grosse bite mr grosse bite grosse queu noire petit cul grosse bite vieille marocaine grosse salope beurette poilue grosse femme faire sauter grosse bite gratuit grosse bite petit cul extrait video grosse salope femme grosse poilue black grosse grosse and bertha galerie des femme mature mature women mature photo gratuit mature femme photo sex mature chatte vieille mature sexe mature avec jeune gratuit de femme mature photo gratuite femme mature mature nylon mature ass mature have sex old mature sex lady sex mature mother tres salope gratuit mature mature movies free mature sex mature vieille mature porno sex mature mature woman femme mature sex femme mature galerie photo sexe mature femme phtos sexe mature sexy cum mature photo amateur mature mature with young boys menagere mature sexy photo gratuite mature amateur facial porno mature sex sexy mature site groups.msn.com mature sexy site groups.msn.com fucking women mature mature uniforme sexy mature gratuit porno naked amateur mature x porno femme mature older mature women porno mature espagnol free pics mature women young fuck mature archive porno mature women nude mature salope amatrice gay young with mature horny mature women salope et mature gros sein femme sexy et mature mature and young boy video telechargemen musique gratuite top musique kazaa musique gratuite telechargement and musique and gratuite ecouter musique roxette musique ecouter cours musique musique gratuite telecharge musique telecharger and musique and musique mp3 gratuit yahoo musique musique indienne telecharger musique ligne telecharger musique gratuite sur internet ecouter musique rnb telechargenemt musique gratuite ecouter la musique francaise musique midi gratuite martiniquaise telecharger and musique and telecharger musique gratuite telecharger clip musique musique telecharger partition musique gratuite musique partagee musique a ecouter en ligne telecharger musique chanson logiciel pour ecouter de la musique musique militaire clip musique vente lecteur mp3 baladeur mp3 fm 128mo baladeur mp3 dictaphone juke box logiciel convertisseur wma mp3 baladeur mp3 mpman convertisseur wma mp3 gratuit mp3 rap us telecharger mp3 telecharger musique mode mp3 mp3 wma prix mp3 convertisseur and mp3 and midi convertir wma mp3 convertisseur mwa en mp3 panasonic sv sd100 baladeur mp3 avec telechargement atrac3 mp3 convertir convertisseur wav vers mp3 telecharger mp3 wma convertir wav en mp3 ipod baladeur lecteur mp3 convertisseur cd mp3 gratuit convertisseur mid mp3 telecharger and musique and telecharger and mp3 and gratuit convertisseur ogg mp3 encoder mp3 telecharger and musique and musique mp3 gratuit logiciel lecteur mp3 music mp3 converter mp3 mp3 convertir ram convert mp3 kt tunstall download mp3 plugin mp3 pro encoder en mp3 pro convertir mp3 en mp3 pro arab song mp3 download lecteur minidisc mp3 sony lecteur mp3 sony nw e95 kaleidoscopio mp3 voce download download waltz mp3 lecteur mp3 multimedia creative nomad juke box zen xtra 60 go telechargement de musique au format mp3 cd mp3 convert mp3 pro v.1.1.0 thompson mp3 pro convert mp3 to cd lecteur enregistreur dvi mp3 sony lecteur mp3 256 lecteur mp3 original lecteur mp3 multimedia download constantine mp3 mpc mp3 convertir mp3 and gratuit and telechargement musique telechargement and mp3 and gratuit and musique convert cda mp3 download cerrone mp3 convertisseur and wav and mp3 steinberg mp3 pro download free music mp3 convert real to mp3 telechargement chanson mp3 gratuit convertir des fichier en format mp3 lecteur mp3 creative 256mo lecteur mp3 philips key 015 convertir mp3 vers midi telechargement gratuit mp3 rap telechargement mp3 gratuit et legale mp3 to midi 256mo baladeur mp3 usb telechargement mp3 corneille gratuit lecteur mp3 256mo rechargeable decodeur and mp3 convertisseur mp3 vers midi enregistrer au format mp3 musique gratuite recentes mp3 freeware conversion midi mp3 musique celtique mp3 gratuite encodeur fichier mp3 midi lecteur mp3 philips exp 203 transformer format mp3 son au format mp3 midi 2 mp3 musique midi mp3 driver lecteur mp3 samsung mp3 son midi logiciel mixage mp3 dj midi mp3 transformer mp3 fichier midi gratuit tele charme musique mp3 rap baladeur mp3 256mo fm baladeur mp3 et tuner fm lecteur mp3 ogg baladeur mp3 fm go lecteur mp3 usb 128 fm mix ambient 128 mp3 free convertir fichier mix mp3 transformer rm en mp3 juillet avalon mix mp3 lecteur mp3 fm usb baladeur mp3 256 fm usb baladeur mp3 512mo fm lecteur cd mp3 vcd baladeur mp3 fm 40 go mp3 fm baladeur ecouter chaabi marocain format mp3 maintenent compresser musique au format mp3 lecteur mp3 fm 1gb lecteur mp3 dictaphone fm lecteur portable cd cdr mp3 tuner fm lecteur mp3 audiokey fm comment gagner lecteur cd mp3 transformation fichier en mp3 bossa electrica mix mp3 transformer des fichier en mp3 lecteur cd mp3 expanium exp 211 lecteur mp3 radio fm 20 go h b conversion de fichier audio en format mp3 baladeur mp3 fm iriver 890 diviser un fichier mp3 telecharger des musique au format mp3 gratuitement mp3 index of mix mp3 couper cut cutter blade mp3 encoder logiciel graveur mp3 gratuit lecteur mp3 baladeur hp livre graveur cd dvd mp3 son couper fichier audio mp3 mp3 free downloading music music mp3 arabe convertisseur de musique mp3 en wma telecharger des mp3 gratis bruitage mp3 gratuit music mp3 ru digital mp3 player baladeur lecteur mp3 convertir and le and wma and en and mp3 wave to mp3 encoder convertir fichier wma en fichier mp3 encoder mp3 cd guide d achat lecteur mp3 tychonic lecteur baladeur mp3 download mp3 gratuit music mp3 free wma mp3 encoder mp3 chargement gratuit baladeur mp3 512 baladeur lecteur mp3 baladeur mp3 sony baladeur lecteur mp3 achat lecteur mp3 avec batterie logiciel mixage mp3 gratuit convertir wma mp3 free logiciel graveur baladeur mp3 gratuis players baladeur lecteur mp3 logiciel lire mp3

6:56 AM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home