Noemie Emery: Torture, Sophistry and the Road to Perdition
Noemi Emery is, apparently, not a person who cares to understand the other side in an argument. She is not interested in teasing out the strong points on the opposing side, not interested in discovering what insights might motivate her interlocutors. This may be, in part, because she apparently believes that those who disagree with her are evil and insane. Ostensibly focusing on Jon Stewart's (soon disavowed) suggestion that dropping the atomic bomb was a war crime--but in fact taking aim at all of those who think that torture may not be just swell, she writes:
a) America’s leaders owe more to the enemy than they do to their allies and people
Of course no one believes this. To insist that prisoners (roughly: prisoners of war) have the minimal human rights recognized by all civilized nations and guaranteed to them by our Constitution and treaties (including some signed by the very Gipper) is in no way to assert or suggest that "America's leaders owe more to the enemy than they do to their allies and people." Currently, the most common position among sensible people is that the Bush administration erred by being too eager to use "techniques" that were too brutal and insufficiently effective. To insist that prisoners be afforded minimal rights is hardly to value their lives about ours; in fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. Ms. Emery's distortion here is blatant and shameful.
b) ...one can wage war in a fastidious manner, deterring or defeating bloodthirsty people without resorting to ugliness
Ah, yes..."ugliness," is it? How about we dispense with the terminological soft-pedaling, Ms. Emery? We're not talking about "ugliness." We're talking about torture. We're talking about strapping prisoners down and drowning them (for technically, it is drowning). We are talking about putting America in the same moral category as Pol Pot, Papa Doc and Pinochet (the latter rather a hero on the right, so mentioning him here may not carry the appropriate dialectical weight, unfortunately.). We're talking about moral crimes, not aesthetic ones. We're not talking about tacky drapes. We're not talking about red wine with fish. (Though our friends on the right seem to think that our only moral obligations have to do with keeping our pee-pees in our pants...so, again, it's not clear how much agreement we can take for granted here....) If Ms. Emery genuinely believes what she's written here, then I think I may have identified the source of her confusion: a weak grasp of the distinction between the moral and the aesthetic.
Though, turning to the more substantive part of her absurd claim: as it turns out, one can defeat and deter bloodthirsty people without resorting to torture. That, you see, is the American way. We've defeated and deterred enemies at least as bloodthirsty--and incomparably more dangerous--than these before. And we've done so without becoming like them ourselves. You've heard of Hitler? You've heard of Stalin? Perhaps this is the source of Ms. Emery's confusion: ignorance of history.
c) ...anything done by Americans to win a war, end a war, or forestall an attack on the country and the people is wrong.
And here we descend from the merely idiotic to the genuinely sickening. Yes, here it is: a genuine instance of what I've always thought was a caricature of conservatives: an actual claim that liberals hate America and want to see it destroyed. Read it again. Turns that we believe, you and I, that anything that aims at (i) winning a war, or at (ii) ending a war, or at (iii) forestalling an attack on the country is wrong. Well, you got me. That is what I believe, and it was only a matter of time before I was found out. In fact, truth be told, the only time I think torture would be justified is if it were required in order to destroy America. Then I myself would do it, of course. With relish. And with NPR playing in the background.
So to summarize: to object to torturing prisoners is believe that it is wrong to do anything that might end a war. If you think we ought not strap people down and drown them, then you yearn to help al Qaeda to kill innocent Americans; you love OBL and want to have ten thousand of his babies.
If Ms. Emery actually believes any of this--any of it--then she has a really, really major screw loose.
But, of course, it's difficult to believe that any even vaguely sane person could believe this drivel. It is the sheerest madness, and can be dismissed without a second thought.
Later on in her little essay, Ms. Emery manages to touch on some serious issues, though not seriously. The springboard for the screed, again, is the fact that Stewart suggested that Truman might be a war criminal--a claim he made in the heat of the moment and for which he sincerely and contritely apologized the next night. But this is that to which conservatism has been reduced--grasping at something that is approximately one step up from a slip of the tongue...and by a man who is, for all his wit, essentially an entertainer. A man who's program, as he has himself pointed out, used to come on after a show about puppets making prank phone calls. One incautious remark by a comedian is what Ms. Emery has to balance the scales against a concerted, seven year program of torture orchestrated by the president of the United States. One comment on late night television, immediately disavowed; that is Ms. Emery's "window" into her opponents' mindset...
As for the question of the morality of dropping the atomic bombs--well it is a very, very difficult one. If you have never worried that President Truman might have made a terrible mistake, then you have never thought seriously about the issue.It is said that Curtis LeMay thought that, had we lost the war, he would have been tried as a war criminal for the incendiary raids. But this, of course, shows that General LeMay was just another America-hating, bleeding-heart knee-jerk liberal crypto-jihadist. Why did Old Iron Pants hate America so much, one wonders?
I myself have defended Truman's decision to drop the bomb many times. At other times, I've been convinced it was the darkest decision in our nation's history. I have sometimes thought the decision was evil. I have more often thought otherwise. Currently, my position goes like this: I don't know. Ms. Emery, of course, thinks the question is an easy one, that only a fool could think it difficult. Apparently everything is black and white from where she stands. For those of us who wrestle with the question, it's hard not to envy the peace of mind that must bring. She might be a fool, but she probably sleeps well at night.
Her final attempt to address something like a serious issue turns on a quote from Michael Kinsley, who writes:
Emery, consistent with her M.O., acts as if--and perhaps even believes that-- the suggestion is absurd. But there is, of course, nothing "tortured" about Kinsley's logic. He merely makes the obvious point, points us to the obvious question: if I knowingly stand by while you torture prisoners--and, in fact, I vote to keep you in power so that you can torture more, how ought one to judge me? What does that make me?
America is, it seems, always right in Emery's eyes; it is, apparently, absurd to suggest that something we did to make ourselves safer could have been wrong. This is an axiom shared by extreme nationalists across the world and throughout history. My country right or wrong...and it doesn't particularly matter which country it might be.
The view, of course, is despicable.
She ends her extended ad hominem with the following particularly impassioned nonsense:
But let me be clear: I have argued--and I am certain that I am right--that, should we have to make a choice between torturing, say, Kalid Sheik Mohammed and allowing millions of Americans to die, then we must choose the former course of action. There are conceivable circumstances--so-called "ticking time-bomb cases"--in which torture is not only permissible, it is obligatory. The crucial point, however is that we have not a shred of evidence that our actual circumstances even approximated such a hypothetical one. Being scared, and being in danger, and not knowing...these are difficult circumstances, but utterly different than those in a ticking time-bomb case. One difference between noble people and others is that the former do not panic and mistakenly convince themselves that a merely dangerous situation is a ticking time-bomb situation. Another difference is: the former do not write extended bits of sophistry defending such mistakes.
Ms. Emery, blinded by spittle-flecked partisanship, attributes every kind of vice and moral derangement to those of us with the temerity to question her heroes. She pretends we are idiots; she pretends we are villains; she pretends that our moral outlook is almost inconceivably distorted. In fact, however, it is we who are being clear-eyed and level-headed; it is we who are standing up for American principles--Constitutional principles that apply to all men, not just Americans. That, at any rate, is the American theory of such things. Our view is the view that is supported by the reasons and by the evidence. And here is what the evidence indicates: It seems that the previous administration captured people without due regard for whether they were guilty. It seems that it held them without affording them sufficient opportunities to prove their innocence. It seems that it tortured them. This--prima facie, at any rate--was immoral, illegal, and ineffective, in descending order of importance. Methods were used which had been specifically engineered not to discover the truth, but, rather, to force the victims to say whatever their tormentors wanted to hear. And the "information" thus obtained seems to have been used, among other things, to fabricate the links between al Qaeda and Iraq that were cynically and dishonestly used to deceive Americans into supporting the greatest strategic blunder in the nation's history.
In response to this evidence--overwhelming almost to the point of absurdity--our position is that an inquiry is needed, that the truth must be discovered. This seems like a fairly radical understatement of the matter.
Emery's position is, apparently, that one must be deranged, evil and objectively pro-terrorist to even suggest that our country might have done something wrong. Presumably we are also deranged to think that this overwhelming evidence gives even the slightest reason in favor of conducting an investigation. The truth, you see, is clear. America--when guided by Republicans, at least--cannot do wrong. It is foolish to even wonder whether it might. That the Bush administration acted rightly is an axiom. It is not even something that can be questioned--no matter what the evidence might say. The point, you see, is to never look back, never think about what we have done, never even consider the possibility that we might have erred. To do so is to risk admitting that we might be imperfect, to risk learning unpleasant truths, to risk learning from our mistakes. Better to simply define all our past actions as correct, and to mindlessly use them as the yardsticks by which all our future actions should be judged. Best not to look back objectively, for we might not like what we see.
The deep irrationalism of Ms. Emery's position is almost a thing of beauty in it's terrible, twisted way. There is almost a kind of sublimity in it. It is clear, simple, elegant. It is a wide, clean, mindless road that leads strait to the bowels of perdition.
[Cliff May links to Emery--presumably approvingly--here.]
Noemi Emery is, apparently, not a person who cares to understand the other side in an argument. She is not interested in teasing out the strong points on the opposing side, not interested in discovering what insights might motivate her interlocutors. This may be, in part, because she apparently believes that those who disagree with her are evil and insane. Ostensibly focusing on Jon Stewart's (soon disavowed) suggestion that dropping the atomic bomb was a war crime--but in fact taking aim at all of those who think that torture may not be just swell, she writes:
This is a window into what has emerged as a curious mindset, which seems to believe that a) America’s leaders owe more to the enemy than they do to their allies and people, b) that one can wage war in a fastidious manner, deterring or defeating bloodthirsty people without resorting to ugliness, and c), that anything done by Americans to win a war, end a war, or forestall an attack on the country and the people is wrong.As you can see, Ms. Emery has approximately the same relationship with the facts that the Bush/Cheney administration had. She is, that is, not on friendly terms with them. Let's take these elements of our alleged mindset one at a time:
a) America’s leaders owe more to the enemy than they do to their allies and people
Of course no one believes this. To insist that prisoners (roughly: prisoners of war) have the minimal human rights recognized by all civilized nations and guaranteed to them by our Constitution and treaties (including some signed by the very Gipper) is in no way to assert or suggest that "America's leaders owe more to the enemy than they do to their allies and people." Currently, the most common position among sensible people is that the Bush administration erred by being too eager to use "techniques" that were too brutal and insufficiently effective. To insist that prisoners be afforded minimal rights is hardly to value their lives about ours; in fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. Ms. Emery's distortion here is blatant and shameful.
b) ...one can wage war in a fastidious manner, deterring or defeating bloodthirsty people without resorting to ugliness
Ah, yes..."ugliness," is it? How about we dispense with the terminological soft-pedaling, Ms. Emery? We're not talking about "ugliness." We're talking about torture. We're talking about strapping prisoners down and drowning them (for technically, it is drowning). We are talking about putting America in the same moral category as Pol Pot, Papa Doc and Pinochet (the latter rather a hero on the right, so mentioning him here may not carry the appropriate dialectical weight, unfortunately.). We're talking about moral crimes, not aesthetic ones. We're not talking about tacky drapes. We're not talking about red wine with fish. (Though our friends on the right seem to think that our only moral obligations have to do with keeping our pee-pees in our pants...so, again, it's not clear how much agreement we can take for granted here....) If Ms. Emery genuinely believes what she's written here, then I think I may have identified the source of her confusion: a weak grasp of the distinction between the moral and the aesthetic.
Though, turning to the more substantive part of her absurd claim: as it turns out, one can defeat and deter bloodthirsty people without resorting to torture. That, you see, is the American way. We've defeated and deterred enemies at least as bloodthirsty--and incomparably more dangerous--than these before. And we've done so without becoming like them ourselves. You've heard of Hitler? You've heard of Stalin? Perhaps this is the source of Ms. Emery's confusion: ignorance of history.
c) ...anything done by Americans to win a war, end a war, or forestall an attack on the country and the people is wrong.
And here we descend from the merely idiotic to the genuinely sickening. Yes, here it is: a genuine instance of what I've always thought was a caricature of conservatives: an actual claim that liberals hate America and want to see it destroyed. Read it again. Turns that we believe, you and I, that anything that aims at (i) winning a war, or at (ii) ending a war, or at (iii) forestalling an attack on the country is wrong. Well, you got me. That is what I believe, and it was only a matter of time before I was found out. In fact, truth be told, the only time I think torture would be justified is if it were required in order to destroy America. Then I myself would do it, of course. With relish. And with NPR playing in the background.
So to summarize: to object to torturing prisoners is believe that it is wrong to do anything that might end a war. If you think we ought not strap people down and drown them, then you yearn to help al Qaeda to kill innocent Americans; you love OBL and want to have ten thousand of his babies.
If Ms. Emery actually believes any of this--any of it--then she has a really, really major screw loose.
But, of course, it's difficult to believe that any even vaguely sane person could believe this drivel. It is the sheerest madness, and can be dismissed without a second thought.
Later on in her little essay, Ms. Emery manages to touch on some serious issues, though not seriously. The springboard for the screed, again, is the fact that Stewart suggested that Truman might be a war criminal--a claim he made in the heat of the moment and for which he sincerely and contritely apologized the next night. But this is that to which conservatism has been reduced--grasping at something that is approximately one step up from a slip of the tongue...and by a man who is, for all his wit, essentially an entertainer. A man who's program, as he has himself pointed out, used to come on after a show about puppets making prank phone calls. One incautious remark by a comedian is what Ms. Emery has to balance the scales against a concerted, seven year program of torture orchestrated by the president of the United States. One comment on late night television, immediately disavowed; that is Ms. Emery's "window" into her opponents' mindset...
As for the question of the morality of dropping the atomic bombs--well it is a very, very difficult one. If you have never worried that President Truman might have made a terrible mistake, then you have never thought seriously about the issue.It is said that Curtis LeMay thought that, had we lost the war, he would have been tried as a war criminal for the incendiary raids. But this, of course, shows that General LeMay was just another America-hating, bleeding-heart knee-jerk liberal crypto-jihadist. Why did Old Iron Pants hate America so much, one wonders?
I myself have defended Truman's decision to drop the bomb many times. At other times, I've been convinced it was the darkest decision in our nation's history. I have sometimes thought the decision was evil. I have more often thought otherwise. Currently, my position goes like this: I don't know. Ms. Emery, of course, thinks the question is an easy one, that only a fool could think it difficult. Apparently everything is black and white from where she stands. For those of us who wrestle with the question, it's hard not to envy the peace of mind that must bring. She might be a fool, but she probably sleeps well at night.
Her final attempt to address something like a serious issue turns on a quote from Michael Kinsley, who writes:
“There is another group [beyond Bush and his lawyers] that stood by and did nothing while Americans grabbed people off the streets of foreign countries, took them to other foreign countries...and tortured them until they said whatever our government wanted to hear....Millions of people...knew that torture was going on, and voted for Bush anyway...62 million of us voted to reelect George W. Bush in 2004.”And Emery:
At times, the logic deployed in the debate about “torture” borders on torture itself. ...Michael Kinsley brand[s] us all as a nation of criminals for standing by idly as innocent people are randomly plucked off the street.'Criminals' is not Kinsley's term, mind you. It's a word Emery puts in his mouth. But, sadly, the word may very well be apt. In fact, that is one way to put our very worry.
Emery, consistent with her M.O., acts as if--and perhaps even believes that-- the suggestion is absurd. But there is, of course, nothing "tortured" about Kinsley's logic. He merely makes the obvious point, points us to the obvious question: if I knowingly stand by while you torture prisoners--and, in fact, I vote to keep you in power so that you can torture more, how ought one to judge me? What does that make me?
America is, it seems, always right in Emery's eyes; it is, apparently, absurd to suggest that something we did to make ourselves safer could have been wrong. This is an axiom shared by extreme nationalists across the world and throughout history. My country right or wrong...and it doesn't particularly matter which country it might be.
The view, of course, is despicable.
She ends her extended ad hominem with the following particularly impassioned nonsense:
Rather: once upon a time, literate and intelligent people--and the better American presidents--realized that there are some things we must not do, even when self-preservation is on the line. The realized that certain things are beneath us. Once upon a time, such people recognized that our principles are our soul, and that to abandon them is to abandon that soul. And that all the hyperbolic nonsense in the world about self-defense won't change that.Once upon a time, literate and intelligent people understood the difference between attack and defense, assault and pre-emption, and the use of force to conquer, destroy, enslave, or cause pain to large numbers of innocents; and the use of force deployed on aggressors to deflect or prevent the slaughter of thousands, to reverse an invasion, or to end a war others began. Once upon a time, they understood that presidents don’t have the luxury of indulging their qualms at the expense of their countrymen.Once upon a time, American presidents believed that their first job was protecting the country and people...
But let me be clear: I have argued--and I am certain that I am right--that, should we have to make a choice between torturing, say, Kalid Sheik Mohammed and allowing millions of Americans to die, then we must choose the former course of action. There are conceivable circumstances--so-called "ticking time-bomb cases"--in which torture is not only permissible, it is obligatory. The crucial point, however is that we have not a shred of evidence that our actual circumstances even approximated such a hypothetical one. Being scared, and being in danger, and not knowing...these are difficult circumstances, but utterly different than those in a ticking time-bomb case. One difference between noble people and others is that the former do not panic and mistakenly convince themselves that a merely dangerous situation is a ticking time-bomb situation. Another difference is: the former do not write extended bits of sophistry defending such mistakes.
Ms. Emery, blinded by spittle-flecked partisanship, attributes every kind of vice and moral derangement to those of us with the temerity to question her heroes. She pretends we are idiots; she pretends we are villains; she pretends that our moral outlook is almost inconceivably distorted. In fact, however, it is we who are being clear-eyed and level-headed; it is we who are standing up for American principles--Constitutional principles that apply to all men, not just Americans. That, at any rate, is the American theory of such things. Our view is the view that is supported by the reasons and by the evidence. And here is what the evidence indicates: It seems that the previous administration captured people without due regard for whether they were guilty. It seems that it held them without affording them sufficient opportunities to prove their innocence. It seems that it tortured them. This--prima facie, at any rate--was immoral, illegal, and ineffective, in descending order of importance. Methods were used which had been specifically engineered not to discover the truth, but, rather, to force the victims to say whatever their tormentors wanted to hear. And the "information" thus obtained seems to have been used, among other things, to fabricate the links between al Qaeda and Iraq that were cynically and dishonestly used to deceive Americans into supporting the greatest strategic blunder in the nation's history.
In response to this evidence--overwhelming almost to the point of absurdity--our position is that an inquiry is needed, that the truth must be discovered. This seems like a fairly radical understatement of the matter.
Emery's position is, apparently, that one must be deranged, evil and objectively pro-terrorist to even suggest that our country might have done something wrong. Presumably we are also deranged to think that this overwhelming evidence gives even the slightest reason in favor of conducting an investigation. The truth, you see, is clear. America--when guided by Republicans, at least--cannot do wrong. It is foolish to even wonder whether it might. That the Bush administration acted rightly is an axiom. It is not even something that can be questioned--no matter what the evidence might say. The point, you see, is to never look back, never think about what we have done, never even consider the possibility that we might have erred. To do so is to risk admitting that we might be imperfect, to risk learning unpleasant truths, to risk learning from our mistakes. Better to simply define all our past actions as correct, and to mindlessly use them as the yardsticks by which all our future actions should be judged. Best not to look back objectively, for we might not like what we see.
The deep irrationalism of Ms. Emery's position is almost a thing of beauty in it's terrible, twisted way. There is almost a kind of sublimity in it. It is clear, simple, elegant. It is a wide, clean, mindless road that leads strait to the bowels of perdition.
[Cliff May links to Emery--presumably approvingly--here.]
7 Comments:
Cheers, WS. You seem more prolific lately.
I came by to visit old friends---I I do think of y'all as friends, even my enemies and you know who you are. But esp you, WS.
But I'll be going now. You can find out where to find me.
WS, the polemicist attacks the critics of who he's defending. I have no idea who Ms. Emery is and don't care. She seems like a nobody. But attacking stupid critics is far easier than actually defending a position.
In chess, they say play the board, not the opponent. Make a game they study through the ages. The search for truth is totally different than playing Law & Order, defeating idiot or careless arguments.
Anywayz, it's been a nice visit. I'll continue to haunt you, mebbe reappear as an apparition now & then. You still have my enduring affection and respect, WS, and that's [sarcasm off]. Rock on.
Love,---TVD
But attacking stupid critics is far easier than actually defending a position.He is defending a position here, independent of the arguments of the stupid critic.
That, at any rate, is the American theory of such things. Our view is the view that is supported by the reasons and by the evidence. And here is what the evidence indicates: It seems that the previous administration captured people without due regard for whether they were guilty. It seems that it held them without affording them sufficient opportunities to prove their innocence. It seems that it tortured them. This--prima facie, at any rate--was immoral, illegal, and ineffective, in descending order of importance. Methods were used which had been specifically engineered not to discover the truth, but, rather, to force the victims to say whatever their tormentors wanted to hear. And the "information" thus obtained seems to have been used, among other things, to fabricate the links between al Qaeda and Iraq that were cynically and dishonestly used to deceive Americans into supporting the greatest strategic blunder in the nation's history.The search for truth is totally different than playing Law & Orderor terming an essay a 'polemic', while curiously avoiding the meat of WS's arguments.
By hinting that WS isn't serious in his "Love of wisdom"(search for the truth) a semi-literal translation of the profession that WS has chosen to make his living in, you fail to advance a case for your side having anything to do with a 'search for the truth'.
As Mr. Spock might say, "Facinating."
Why does this remind me of you, TVD?
The professor must be an obscurantist or he is nothing; he has a special and unmatchable talent for dullness, his central aim is not to expose the truth clearly, but to exhibit his profundity, his esotericity - in brief to stagger sophomores and other professors.H. L. Mencken
I'll try to push on through the weirdness in what was posted prior to this...
I wanted to ask:
A friend of mine who's a pretty reliable source on these matters told me that Americans have no idea how frequently troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are subjected to ticking time bomb situations. I wanted to pass along to you a description of a scenario that is alleged to happen sometimes as frequently as a once or twice a week for certain periods of time:
An enemy combatant is located and detained after a firefight has rendered him out of ammunition [or some other such similar circumstance has transpired]. He is brought back to an area for questioning and detainment. Once he gets there, he laughs and tells them that he knows they've got troops in [insert area here] and that they're going to be destroyed. He's not going to tell how, but he's laughing about the impending doom.
My question here: does this constitute a ticking time bomb situation? What if it turns out that 80% of the guys who say this are lying? Does that matter?
I doubt it's necessary to ponder all of the alternative methods one might go about in order to retrieve the information from these people without torture. My real question is whether or not torture is morally justified in this sort of scenario: that is, whether or not it qualifies as a true "ticking time bomb" scenario. If someone claims that he's about to kill people and he has information that would help stop this from happening, is that grounds enough to torture him for information if necessary?
My initial guess is that it does qualify. If it turns out that the guy's lying and we torture him to no end, it seems to me that we can't be held at fault since we certainly aren't morally obliged to protect those who attempt to kill us from themselves.
Right?
IF that's right, then if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed claimed to be aware of more attacks coming on on America, it seems like we'd be warranted to waterboard the crap out of him until he told us what was going on.
Of course, an inquiry would still be necessary to find out if that did happen and if the waterboarding stopped when we got the information we needed, etc., but it seems more and more plausible to me that the torture wasn't without warrant.
He's not going to tell how, but he's laughing about the impending doom.Record what he says.
The next logical step to take would be to take him to the site in question and see what his reaction there is. Inform him that if they get there and there are any civilian casualties, that he will be turned loose after his confession his blasted about on loudspeakers before he's left there to the mercies of the crowd.
Martyrdom at the hands of the Americans is one thing. At the Iraqi people, not so much.
Here's what an expert on the subject says:
OLBERMANN: And we turn now to Matthew Alexander, former U.S. Air Force interrogator, author of “How to Break a Terrorist.” Mr. Alexander is using that pseudonym for security reasons.
Thanks again for your time tonight, sir.
MATTHEW ALEXANDER, FMR. U.S. AIR FORCE INTERROGATOR: Thanks for having me again, Keith.
OLBERMANN: If Zubaydah gave up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Jose Padilla during non-torture interrogation, why? Even just theoretically, morals aside, what would the premise be to start torturing him?
ALEXANDER: Well, there is no premise to do that. And let‘s remember, that Ali Soufan is an FBI agent, was probably one of the more qualified people to conduct that interrogation. The FBI has years of experience doing criminal investigations, and doing interrogations of criminal gangs. And al Qaeda is organized like a criminal gang. And so, the FBI was particularly suited to conduct those interrogations.
OLBERMANN: But Mr. Soufan also wrote today that the torture of Zubaydah failed because it shut the FBI out of the process, and interrogators were denied access to an FBI colleague who he describes as knowing more about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed than anybody in the government. How colossal was that mistake?
ALEXANDER: Huge, colossal mistake. You know, interrogation is a team effort. There‘s analysts involve, there‘s intelligence officers, that support interrogators and they are absolutely critical to the mission. When we hunted down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq, it was analysts who gave us the support that allowed us to conduct effective interrogations to get there.
OLBERMANN: Put this Zubaydah thing in context for me. They got actionable intelligence essentially, then switched to torture. They based the torture on a program that the Chinese used on our prisoners during the Korean War in the ‘50s, to elicit false confessions. What was the Bush administration seeking by torturing prisoners using a method that had previously been used to solicit false confessions?
ALEXANDER: Well, you have you to ask yourself who came up with that idea to reverse-engineer the SERE techniques, because it wasn‘t interrogators. From what I‘ve read, it was people, at least one psychologist, but it wasn‘t trained interrogators.
Anybody with significant interrogation experience knows that the best methods are based on relationship building, and they‘re based on criminal investigative techniques that work against al Qaeda. And they would use the methods that were tried and true, that worked in World War II.
What? I'm not sure how that answers my question. I specifically said I don't think that we need to go into everything we could possibly do in that scenario. I gotta say, your suggestion is weird to the point at which I wonder whether or not you were being serious.
My question is whether or not the scenario I posed qualifies as a ticking time bomb scenario.
Previously, WS had written "I should note here that I advocate torture in 'ticking time-bomb' situations (that is, situations in which we know that we have the perpetrator, know that disaster is looming, and have run out of other options".
I wonder what, by that definition, is required before we say that we know disaster is looming. Is the suspect's own assertion enough evidence? What do you think? As has been pointed out previously, TTB situations "don't really happen". I wonder if that might be because we're being overly strict about when we're allowed to torture. If it is the case that the hypothetical situation I've spoken of above occurs frequently (this is probable) and it is the case that we're allowed to torture in that case, the situation may be less bad than we think it is right now.
Of course, the bad part about the increasing liklihood of that being the case is that it comes with an increasing liklihood that condemning torture outright isn't the best way to proceed, and that means Obama's not doing as well as he should be, I'd say.
I dunno. This gets really complicated if the torture issue is murkier than it's been made out to be so far.
I gotta say, your suggestion is weird to the point at which I wonder whether or not you were being serious.It would be worth trying once, just to see what would happen. You'd have a 20% chance, from your own figures, of having to follow through, and if you can get to the target site before the bomb goes off, then his reaction(since he'll not have anticipated such a move), would be most informative, to say the least.
I am serious about not torturing, even in the scenario you outline above.
FWIW, the question about torture has been settled a long time ago.
Some 30 years ago, I had a German teacher who has been in Air Force Intelligence, and he would tell us that he knew how to make people talk based on the training he received.
"Would you like an apple, maybe a doughnut, or a magazine to read?", he'd ask us students as a way of conveying how he'd approach an 'enemy agent' and get information out of them.
Mother Avenger heard a Chinese guerrilla being tortured by her Japanese Imperial Army captors during WWII, after reading what she wrote about it you'd literally never wish it even on your worse enemy.
Here is Alexander's op-ed in the WaPo, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html
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