Wednesday, April 15, 2009

Columbine and God
A Response to Tony Woodlief

Sullivan directs us here where Woodlief, writing on the anniversary of the Columbine murders, says this:
There’s little left to say about evil, in a secularized culture with a Christianesque patina, once the tired whipping boys of culture and video games and bullying are laid aside. They weren’t gamers? Weren’t bullied? Weren’t molested or obsessed or wrongly medicated? Well then. Could have happened to anyone.
And, again, on behalf of our allegedly deterministic culture:
Why would two young men dream of slaughtering hundreds? A pin fell out. Could have happened to anyone.
But Woodleif responds:
We none of us can ask whether these parents labored as best they could to bring their children to a knowledge of the Living God, because polite, educated people don’t talk that way.
Here's some stuff about which I think Woodlief and I agree:

We have, as a culture, shown at least some tendency to move in the direction of determinism. There is a kind of middle-brow, Discovery-Channel-level view of ourselves and our minds that is inclined in the direction of determinism. No one seems to bat an eye when, every other week or so, we hear some report of a neuroscientific experiment--often badly misinterpreted--that is supposed to put another brick in the determinist wall. My students have been told that they are, in essence, robots programmed by their culture, and many of them seem to believe it. The intellectual and political left, of course, is passionately devoted to excuse-making, and so has a natural inclination to accept our robotification, as responsibility evaporates along with freedom.

This semi-conscious slide into determinism is alarming in part because we seem so sanguine about it. You'd think that the abolition of man would get more of a rise out of people.

Now, just because determinism is tragic doesn't make it false. But I'm not addressing its truth or falsity here. I'm just saying that if determinism doesn't discomfit you, then you're probably not paying attention. (Though you might be a compatibilist--something which is tragic in its own, different way...)

And here's a second problem: at the same middle-brow level, it often seems as if we as a culture may be sliding toward moral nihilism, or its infinitely-more-confused cousin, cultural relativism. It seems, for example, almost impossible for my students to write about right and wrong without putting the words in scare quotes. In fact, they generally seem unable to write about right and wrong at all, but instead commonly write about what is "considered right" and what is "considered wrong." This, too, should be alarming to us.

On all this, I think Woodleif and I might agree.

Now for the disagreement: Woodlief mistakenly believes that God is the answer here.

If we're worried about the fact that determinism and/or moral nihilism might be true, God doesn't help. God could make a deterministic universe or a non-deterministic one, and whether we are free or not has nothing to do with him. We might live in a liberatarian, Godless universe, or a deterministic Godly universe, or in either of the other two combinations. The question of the existence of God and the question of free will are almost certainly unrelated to each other. Christianity seems to be committed to libertarianism (that is, to the view that we are free), so if Chrstianity were true, then we'd be free. But we don't need God to be free and responsible. Ergo we needn't teach people about God to teach them that they are free and responsible.

There's a common misconception that God is required for morality--but it's just that, a misconception. Again, Christianity seems committed to moral realism, so again Christianity is one way out of nihilism, but not close to the only way. Most moral theories don't require God in the picture, and work just as well without him. Only divine command theorists really seem to require God--and the divine command theory is as conclusively refuted as philosophical theories ever get.

So, intellectually speaking, God can't help us out.

The only way in which God or appeals thereto might help here is that some people might be more strongly inclined to be good if they believe in God. Perhaps the promise of heaven or the threat of hell helps to keep them in line. Most people don't require such incentives to be good, but some do, so the view might have some utility. But, again, it's not required. Most people are motivated to act morally without threats about the afterlife--and among those who aren't, wordly threats tend to do just fine.

Woodlif's suggestion that speaking more to the Columbine shooters about the allegedly "living God" was the key to stopping the murders is just not really plausible. Now, I'm all for stopping our semi-conscious slide into determinism and nihilism, and I think you're a fool if you think that such theories have nothing to do with how people actually act. It would be extremely surprising if we could tell people over and over again that nothing they could do is really blameworthy without having some effect on their actions. That is, it would be surprising if such a theory had no practical consequences. But none of this means that we have to teach people Christianity--Christianity is not the only alternative to nihilism. It's just one view among many, and not the most plausible. There's a heck of a lot of space between "teach them they're robots living in a morally featureless universe" and "teach them about Jesus."

And, finally, we ought to note Christianity's role in nudging us toward nihilism. Christianity has had an inclination to make patently absurd claims about morality--for example, it has had an inclination to identify all non-marital and non-reproductive sex as immoral. This, I think, has led to much of the current skepticism and cynicism about morality. We grow up hearing the "sex is sin" mantra, and eventually most of us see it for the lie it is. Some, unfortunately, go on to infer that if claims about the immorality of sex were fictitious, then perhaps all claims about morality are fictitious. Christianity itself has given morality a bad name through promiscuous accusations of immorality. If Christians want people to take morality seriously, one thing they could do is get seroius about it themselves, and save the concept for, as we'd say back home, lyin' cheatin' and stealin' instead of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll.

7 Comments:

Blogger The Mystic said...

This is going to be a little messy, but I'm at work, so excuse me:


Interesting (to me) that you bring up the idea that some people do require incentives to be good, and therefore Christianity (amongst other views) might have some utility.

Being in religious studies and encountering more than my fair share of very attractive, yet, uh, lacking-in-the-evidence-department positions, I've done a lot of thinking about what, if any, conditions might render such a belief ethical to hold.

I mean, obviously one ought not to believe in something that will cause him to do morally repugnant things, so rationality is still required as a foundation for whatever beliefs one might hold, but it seems to me at the end of some time spent speculating on the topic that it might in fact be ethically good, or at least neutral, to believe in something without much reason if one grounds oneself in rationality to prevent oneself from going morally astray and if the belief benefits the person doing the believing.

The reason I find this interesting is because it may have interesting consequences when talking about whether or not it's ok to have faith in a religious belief in the face of evidence to the contrary. Or, perhaps even more interesting, whether or not it's ok to allow something like religious experience to sway one's belief more heavily than one would permit if one were to attempt to be as thoroughly rigorous as is possible in the search for truth.

What do you think?

10:58 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Sounds like you might be thinking something in the vicinity of Kant:

"It is a need, with the status of a law, to assume that without which an aim cannot be achieved which one ought to set before oneself invariably in all actions."

Also--though I've never thought his arguments here were compelling--he argues (in the second Critique) that belief in God and the afterlife are necessary for morality in a weird way. Of course the divine command theory is nuts--the moral law can't depend on God. But Kant thinks we can't be moral unless we have some assurance that happiness will be proportionate to virtue (uh...roughly...no sleep last night and this isn't coming to mind very clearly...). God's the guarantor of that.

Anyway, one crucial part of Kant's position and your suggestion is that there's never any obligation/permission to believe something we know to be false. But, if a certain question is up in the air, and there are these other, complicated types of moral and epistemic benefits to be gained by believing it...well, it's not crazy to think we're permitted. That's the view anyway.

8:59 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

I'd phrase it something like:

If a certain question is up in the air, and there are sufficiently great benefits to be gained by believing in an answer for which one has what would otherwise be considered to be less than satisfactory evidence, the benefits may warrant a reduction in the amount of evidence necessary to grant one permission to hold the belief may obtain.

It seemed like you were indicating in your response that Kant thinks it's ok to believe something one knows to be false, but I don't know if I even think that's possible. Maybe if one intentionally ignores or forgets evidence or something, I dunno. I was thinking more of permission for a reduction in intellectual rigor when it comes to holding a belief that has significantly great benefits.

10:03 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Re: Kant: no, absolutely not, and I regret any suggestion to that effect. I was actually trying to make it clear that it's *crucial* to the Kantian picture that I NOT know that the thing in question is false. The issue MUST still be up in the air. This is related to the stuff about pruning back knowledge in order to make room for faith.

I guess this is the distinction between "blind faith" and rational faith. I have blind faith that p if I believe it despite evidence than makes such belief impermissible. Rational faith requires that the question be an open one.

The one way in which K seems to be saying something peculiarly strong is this: he doesn't seem to be saying just that I am permitted the relevant assumption, but rather, that I am under some kind of obligation to accept it.

Which, inter alia, makes me realize that I've been speaking of belief, whereas he writes of assumptions, and I'm not sure what his line on the difference is.

10:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Winston,

I got here through a strange set of circumstances, and my eye caught Tony Woodlief's name, as he's a friend of mine.

I'll admit I don't know nearly as much about philosophy, but my logic alarm is ringing here.

"whether we are free or not has nothing to do with him...The question of the existence of God and the question of free will are almost certainly unrelated to each other." You do not support these statements.

"Only divine command theorists really seem to require God--and the divine command theory is as conclusively refuted as philosophical theories ever get." I admit I hadn't heard this theory before, but wikipedia does not describe it in terms that make me think "conclusively refuted". Please advise better resources.

"Most people don't require such incentives to be good, but some do, so the view might have some utility." I'd say we're nowhere near far enough along in the "post-Christian society" experiment to know if that's true. All philosophers to the contrary, people still do not necessarily make logically sound or based decisions, and the framework of Christian morality is still has the momentum of guiding our society.

"Christianity has had an inclination to make patently absurd claims about morality--for example, it has had an inclination to identify all non-marital and non-reproductive sex as immoral." What is your support for these statements?

"If Christians want people to take morality seriously, one thing they could do is get seroius [sic] about it themselves..."
At last, we agree. :) Make no mistake: I am an incredibly sinful person, and more of my sin is revealed to me each day. Paul, the author of much of the New Testament through his Epistles, goes from writing earlier on that "I am a sinner" to "I am a great sinner" to "Sinners, of whom I am the greatest". Coming into closer community with God means coming to see more clearly how sinful I am. But that's for another conversation. There's a tension that is to be maintained in Christianity between truth and love, and much of the world sees a harsh, judging "moralism" rather than the beauty of God's love. But that sounds like we'll need more than one comment to go on about, so I'd be first interested in hearing your thoughts to my above questions.

Cordially,

Kevin Cassidy

7:29 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Kevin,

Thanks for the interesting comments.

1.
As for the relationship between God and free will: (a) Note that TW doesn't provide any support for his claim that God *is* necessary for free will...and, in fact, I'm not sure I've ever even *seen* any arguments for the claim that he is. So I think I'm warranted there in just pointing out TW is mistaken. It is, of course, difficult to say why God isn't necessary for FW...just like it would be hard to say why a ham sandwich isn't necessary for FW. First we'd have to know why TW thinks God *does* have some role to play there.

2.
Yeah, the divine command theory is dead in the water. The key insight is that no one can make something morally right merely by commanding it--not even God. If the only thing that could be said in favor of, e.g., "do not murder" were that God had said so, then moral nihilism would be true. God might send people to hell for not obeying him--and people often confuse that view with the DCT--but it's a different theory. I've got a bunch of posts on this, but am too lazy to look 'em up... God,if he exists, would have control over non-normative facts--e.g. over whether our skin was soft enough to be harmed by knives--but once he has fixed the facts about our skin, and about knives, he has no further control over whether it's wrong to stab us with knives. It is, and he can't change that by saying that it isn't.

3.
All sorts of atheists, Buddhists, etc. act morally all the time. So no appeal to God is required for motivation.

4.
As for Christianity's absurd claims about sex, I think that's obvious enough that I'll let it stand on its own :)

These are, of course, the kinds of points one might want to explore in some detail, but there's an over-arching point here: theists often see philosophical problems and recognized we need to solve them, but mistakenly think that just saying "God exists" will do so. But there are, basically, no interesting problems that can be solved by adding God to the picture. God *raises* philosophical problems, he doesn't solve any.

I realize that's all short.

7:55 AM  
Anonymous Kevin Cassidy said...

Winston,

Thank you for your responses, I appreciate the dialogue.

1. I did not reference your portrayal of Tony's position, only that you made declarative statements that were not then supported. Additionally, the discussion has been moved from "there is no connection between to two" in your first statement to "one does not require the other". I would say three different statements have been made:
A. FW has nothing to do with God.
B. God and FW are almost certainly unrelated to each other.
C. (implied) God is not necessary for FW.

I'm okay with discussing any of them, if you are also interested, but I haven't heard any support, just statements put out there by themselves.

2. I do not understand why "not even God" can make something morally right. To my understanding, this would require treating God just like a regular Joe, rather than as supernatural, outside our reality (and logic) and yet also involved with it - the "mystery of God", as we say. For you to say that moral nihilism would be true if all it took was for God to say something was not wrong (if I have portrayed your position correctly) would require that God is not the binding authority of morality. I do not agree with this. Please support. In the meantime, I will try to read up more on DCT.

3. That is a fair point; I was not specific. I would say that the American culture, which still dramatically influences the conscious and subconscious choices so many here make, is still significantly itself influenced by Christianity. Having been raised secularly, I'll admit I was surprised to discover how much Christianity does still affect our culture! Regardless, my point was that however people may choose to rationalize their behavior, I don't think anyone today is far enough from the sphere of religious morality that has been such a large part of thought/feeling in this world up to this time for us to be able to say they do not require incentives to do good. I recognize isn't a easily supportable statement, so I am happy to leave the point for now, unless you'd like to do otherwise.

4. There is a shifting of the position from the stated "patently absurd claims about [sexual] morality" originally in the post and which I hoped to correctly portray to "absurd claims about sex" mentioned in your response. I will concede the latter point that there have been several well-publicized examples of Christian misrepresentations about consequences of sex (hairy palms? blindness?) that can be lampooned by opponents. However, I would like to hear points to the former. I would say we are too close to the main part of the sexual revolution to say what (if any) are the positive effects. I would say to the negative that we (America) have a more pornified culture than ever, the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases ever, and the highest (and alarmingly growing) rate of children growing up without biological fathers in the house. The last two are easily supported by data. The consequences of these facts don't require much extrapolation. Sexual "freedom" may not be the panacea people easily accept it to be.

Anyway, I'd be again interested to hear your responses. I will try, when I have time, to read some more of your posts.

I'm also interested, what drew your attention to Tony Woodlief?

Respectfully,

Kevin Cassidy

2:11 PM  

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