Tuesday, April 03, 2007

The Price of Disloyalty

Over at Slate, Timothy Noah discusses the trend regarding the fates of Bush defectors:

By far the greatest humiliation endured by the above-mentioned Bush defectors rained down on the earliest bird of all, Dilulio. Within seconds of the Esquire piece hitting the stands, the White House was able to wring a series of groveling public apologies. The White House achieved this, it has been whispered, by scrutinizing the Venn diagram of rich people who gave both to the Bush campaign and to the University of Pennsylvania, where Dilulio taught. Some fat-cat Bushie Penn alumnus was then dispatched to instruct the Penn administration (or perhaps Dilulio himself; this part's unclear) that Dilulio's rude comments might prove costly to university fund-raising if they weren't retracted with all deliberate speed.

But recent defectors like Matthew Dowd and Vic Gold get little more than a cold shoulder.

Presumably everyone would agree on the following, right?:

(a) The actions described above are deplorable and inexcusable. Any individual or administration who/that would employ such tactics is to be condemned, and is very likely to be unworthy of the kind of respect one ordinarily associates with the presidency.
and
(b) If the actions described above never actually happened, then people should stop "whispering" about them, quit writing about whispering about them, etc.

As is so often the case, the moral question here is fairly clear-cut; it's the facts that we lack.

[HT: Statisticasaurus Rex]

49 Comments:

Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Where would Dick Morris fit into all this?

7:21 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

He killed the kids in Arkansas.

With a candlestick.

On the railroad tracks.

10:12 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Reductio ad absurdum or non sequitur?

5:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

argumentum ad ignoramus

8:41 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Such things insult their author's intelligence, not their intended victim's. Go for it, Mr. Tea. The other cheek is offered as well; the shame remains yours and yours alone.

Dick Morris is quite relevant here. He's ignored because of the cognitive dissonance he brings with him. But he's a far more central and significant character than any of the aforementioned (anti-Bush) peripheral figures who are apparently given more credence.

I'm not down on Bill Clinton, who I think did the best he could, but Morris, who was there, reveals the bald opportunism of both the Clintons, one of whom is running to be our next president.

Me, I believe them all, in that reality-based sort of way. You want feet of clay? You got 'em.

10:53 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

I belive that deserves a raucus LOOOOOL

10:55 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Haha oh lighten up, Tom. That was funny and you know it.

10:57 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Funny? OK, sort of. But cheap, man, cheap. Not worthy of Shaw or Churchill. Wit is made of sterner stuff. But perhaps you're easily satisfied.

Would you call someone an ignoramus to their face? I dunno, mebbe you would, but no way I'd going drinking with you, man. I'll end up in jail or dead getting your back.

And back to my counterargument, Dick Morris. Over & out.

11:20 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Tu quoques on parade...

Once again:

Fact: The Bush adminstration sucks mega-bad.

Response: Oh yeah? Other administrations sucked too!

Indeed they did. Who on Earth would deny that Dick Morris is a despicable sh*t? No one I know. And it nauseated me that he was in the Clinton camp.

So where's the disagreement?

But if you absolutely insist on playing the comparison game (and actually I think that's perfectly reasonable where there are only two significant parties):

Well, nothing Clinton did comes close to relatively run-of-the-mill actions by the Bushies. Dick Morris and the Ragin' Cajun stink. But they downright virtuous in comparison to the guys the Republicans have. Lee Atwater, anybody? Of whom it can, though, at least be said that he was a good enough man to admit his errors late in his life.

Nobody thinks that the Democrats are great, Tom.

They're just the only semi-reasonable, not-entirely-crazy, quasi-competent, alternative available in American politics.

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Not worthy of Shaw or Churchill."

Very little is. I'll take that as praising with faint damns.

-

12:49 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I disagree with your central premise, WS. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion that the Bushies are worse than the Clintons, but I think that's a function of the Clintons' doings going down the memory hole, coupled with the mainstream media's relative disinterest. Even if Dick Morris is scum, that doesn't necessarily mean that all his dirt on the Clintons is false.

My own premise is that neither side is more inherently virtuous than the other, and eventually you have to get to the substance of their differing political visions and quit what are essentially ad hominems.

Tu quoques are entirely reasonable in support of that premise. In fact, there's no other way to go about it.

1:48 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

You wouldn't go drinking with me 'cause I don't waste my time drinking.

Beside that, if someones goes off the hinge for someone saying "argumentum ad ignoramus", there's something seriously wrong with that person.

Also, I have no idea how any of that has anything to do with anything.


Anyway, from what I can tell, Bill didn't start a $400,000,000,000 (and rising) war based on premises that were AT LEAST derived from incredibly incompetently interpreted intelligence if not blatantly lied about.

I really don't see that there's any sort of a close comparison that can be drawn between the two based on that fact alone. Nothing Clinton ever did remotely compares to that one. Hell, add up every bad thing Clinton did and I don't see how it could compare to that one. Disregarding every other horrendous action taken by the Bush administration, they still suck worse than Clinton based on this atrocity of a war.

So, if you want to play the comparison game, I don't see how there can be a victory for the bush side.

4:38 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Look, Mystic, isn't it obvious that a blowjob between consenting adults is AT LEAST as bad as lying America into a morally and strategically tragic war aimed at destroying the enemy of those who attacked us on 9/11?

Well? Isn't it?

9:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding Dowd, absolution requires more than a sincere act of contrition. I suggest we wait and see what he considers an appropriate penance.


Mr. Tom, perhaps this, mutatis mutando, will make you feel better:

"I use "crime" use loosely here, to conform to the metaphor of a witch hunt."

Imitation, flattery, all that stuff.

-

10:06 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Are you coming on to me, WS?



That blowjob ruined the very moral fabric of the institution of marriage, if you didn't notice. PAY ATTENTION, IGNORAMUS!


*watches for flying punches*

Tom told me to look out when I say that. People are apparently even more rage-filled than I gave them credit for.

11:27 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:16 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

IT WAS JUST A JOKE

It wasn't like he stole your lunch money, DAMN.

I don't know how my defense of marijuana could be considered to be "rambling" when it followed the structure: introduction, point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, conclusion, but ok.

Not that that has anything to do with this, but marijuana would not be my drug of choice either. One time I accidentally ate some brownies that my friend had baked some pot into - that's the extent of my marijuana experience (what a rebel I am!). Just because I defend it from incredibly ridiculous assertions doesn't mean I endorse it or use it.

I'd also like to point out that you don't think "argumentum ad ignoramus" has any comical value and that "wit is made of sterner stuff" but you DO think that "And it's none of my business whether or not you blew Bill Clinton" is funny.

Interesting. I'm not sure it could get any more juvenile than "Well maybe YOU'RE gay, but I'M not!"..lol.

None of this matters, though. I probably shouldn't even respond to provoke you into saying more things that at least border on self-contradiciton
(name calling is brutish, but it's ok to make jokes about me blowing Clinton?...wit is made of sterner stuff, but that one was hilarious?)

All I was saying is: what, exactly, did anyone do that even remotely compares to what bush has done? That's the question - it doesn't have to be a blowjob. I don't think that, if you read the commentary, anyone ever asserted that that was what you meant. Once again...Winston might have been making a joke.


Main Entry: joke
Pronunciation: 'jOk
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin jocus; perhaps akin to Old High German gehan to say, Sanskrit yAcati he asks
1 a : something said or done to provoke laughter; especially : a brief oral narrative with a climactic humorous twist b (1) : the humorous or ridiculous element in something (2) : an instance of jesting : KIDDING {can't take a joke} c : PRACTICAL JOKE d : LAUGHINGSTOCK
2 : something not to be taken seriously : a trifling matter {consider his skiing a joke -- Harold Callender} -- often used in negative constructions {it is no joke to be lost in the desert}

10:43 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Seriously, Tom, you're getting downright ridiculous on this point. I don't know whether you think that, having taken such a strong pro-Bush stance in the past, you can't back off of it now...or that you can't let any criticism of the current disaster go by without adding some semi-relevant criticism of Democrats, or what.

But the response to your Kosovo post is obvious, and I'm sure that if you'd allow yourself to think about this in even a vaguely objective manner you'd recognize that.

Just about every president who ever took us into a war lied about some relevant facts. Bush '41 lied a lot, fabricating satelite data and so forth, but everything more-or-less worked out in the end, so nobody made a big deal out of it. Freeing Kuwait was a decent enough cause, so no biggie that he made up a threat to Saudi Arabia.

Kosovo was probably America's best war--that is, the one undertaken for the most purely humanitarian reasons. Clinton exaggerated a bit about the extent of the humanitarian crisis, but humanitarian crisis it was. He even slipped in a couple of claims about the war being in our strategic interest, and I think that was stretching things, too.

But then there are the lies that go beyond the run of the mill (though I think still basically reprehensible) untruths. The Gulf of Tonkin, for example, which is unforgivable. And the lies from the Bush administration in the current disaster, that are almost too numerous to mention.

There's stretching a good case--which I'm not for, but I'm resigned to--and there's just flat-f*cking-out bullshit lies.

And among the latter, there are the ones that don't lead to disaster, and the ones that do.

I think that such lies deserve impeachment even if they don't lead to disaster, but most Americans are willing to overlook such things. What most Americans are not willing to overlook are flat-f*cking-out lies that DO lead to disaster. In this case, the biggest strategic error in American military history.

Yes, other presidents have lied. No, I don't like it. But to compare the case of Clinton and Kosovo to the current mess is just flat out absurd.

You're better than that, Tom. And I know you know that in your gut.

11:02 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Oh, and:

"argumentum ad ignoramus" WAS funny...though it also WAS insulting...so that's a tough call.

But jeez, Tom, c'mon, man, you're so ridiculously wrong on this point that it's hard to remain respectful. I mean, I often disagree with you, but you're often at least *in the ballpark*.

But on this one...it's like talking to a flat-Earther or something. It is SUCH not a close call that it's hard to stay serious and respectful.

Sorry, man, but that's my honest opinion on this one. Seems to me that you've been beaten on this issue a hundred times, and you just can't see or don't care about the obvious facts.

NOBODY here is saying that Clinton was some paragon of virtue. But he's only about ten or twelve times better than Bush.

Which ain't really all that good when you think about it...

11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's something to be said for long-established truths.

O'Reilly was sitting in a bar and he goes to the bartender
"You see that church over there? I built it with my bare hands but do they call me O'Reilly the church builder? Nooo!
You see that school over there? I taught there for 30 years but do they call me O'Reilly the educator? Nooo!
But you f*@# one goat...."

-mac

(Of course, there's a certain je ne sais quois about using cegars as sex toys as well.)

3:26 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

WS, in light of the fact that Clinton killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children with the sanctions, I don't see how your moral judgment is self-evident. I cannot ignore that unpleasant fact, nor do I think anyone should.

I also cannot forget that Secretary Albright said those deaths were "worth it." Had it been Dick Cheney who said such a thing, that quote would be repeated daily by the press and the leftosphere.

And if Kosovo had sunk into the murderous depravity that Iraq has (which nobody but nobody anticipated), it could have turned into just as big a mess. It also could have resulted in Wes Clark dragging the Russians in and starting World War III, if you recall.

But it didn't. We got lucky. But we're judging outcomes here, and to attach moral condemnation to one president and not the other is not clear moral reasoning, only partisan sanctimony, hence my objection.

Mr. Mystic, if you review the record, it was you who started the gay joke, but I apologize for getting caught up in it. My remark wasn't funny, and I have deleted it.

3:55 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

What did I say that started anything about being gay?

???

It's not true that no one predicted Iraq would be a disaster, either. It's just that few people did and even fewer paid attention because everyone was all hyped up on Post-9/11 agree-with-everything-or-you're-the-antichrist "patriotism".

That's the power of lying to the public when they're in an emotionally vulnerable state - it's just like hitting up a chick on the rebound.

Bush scored America on the rebound, got her pregnant, found out it was octuplets, and now he just stands around saying "wait it out, that's the solution".

...

Lamesauce.

And in addition to that, I'd like to re-emphasize my initial ???

??????

5:21 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Even the Onion said the war would be an "unmitigated disaster"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34144


Just had to point that out.

5:24 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Oh, God, Tom, are we going to go over the sanctions again?

How many times will it take? As you know, I'm torn about the question, but I don't see what else there is to say about it.

But, of course, that's not why your boys drug us into this mess.

And as for Clark in Kosovo (yet another attempt, it seems, to get the crosshairs off the morons who ran us into this ditch), that scraming and running around about how IRRESPONSIBLE AND DANGEROUS Clark's plan was is just silly.

It was a good plan. It would have worked. It's only about a thousand times less dangerous than many of the things your boys have done (if we're going to play the comparison game)...

It's always possible to stir up enough muck to cloud the issue.

What really worries me is that you seem to genuinely think this stuff.

If this doesn't count as an unreasonably bad administration by your lights, I shudder to think what would.

It's all just getting silly.

5:29 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

WS, I wish for one minute you could entertain the possibility that I think it was the right thing, and I'm not just being partisan. It's not necessary to delegitimize me to disagree with me.

What I see is that Bush dealt with the Saddam problem by killing the bad guys, and giving the Iraqis their chance for freedom and self-determination. As I poke through the historical archives, what I find is that the Clinton administration's way resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents just to achieve a few years of containment, and the problem of Saddam kicked down the road.

It's a hopeful sign that you're "torn" about that, WS, but so far you haven't let it breach your moral calculus as you hand down judgments. I'm sorely tempted to use a much stronger word than "silly." (And to use capital letters too.)

Mr. Mystic, I'm referring specifically to the depravity that drives a suicide bomber into a market full of innocents, or leaves children in a car as cover before blowing it up. A new kind of evil, one that was anticipated by nobody.

Neither do I see how it's morally defensible to abandon the Iraqi people to this total inhumanity even if every charge against the Bush administration is true. If it was morally admirable to defend innocent Kosovars, it's a moral imperative to continue to defend the Iraqi people. We're already there.

As for the level of disaster that the Iraq situation is (and it's bad), if we discard all historical perspective, it's the worst thing that ever happened. But we know that's not true. Rwanda, about which no one did anything (although the French may have assisted in it---you could look it up), was far worse. And Nancy Pelosi's new friends the Syrians killed 10 or 30 thousand people, in 1982. Maybe only 1/4 or 1/10 as bad as Iraq, but hey, they got it all done in a day or two. Chances are good you never even heard of it.

In fact, the Syrians could have taught our new Speaker-President a thing or two about quelling insurgencies. It was untidy, but the Muslim Brotherhood never rose again.

BTW, Ms. Pelosi may have committed a felony with her rogue visit to Syria. From what I gather, such a constitutional usurpation of the executive is unprecedented in American history. If we give this a 7 (and I do), Plamegate was a 0.7, and how many millions of words were expended on that?

But who cares? Almost nobody. I cannot imagine the (rightful) blowback if Newt Gingrich had decided to conduct his own foreign policy. The Clinton-Gingrich days were far less serious times, but we have instead grown even sillier.

8:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

giving the Iraqis their chance for freedom and self-determination.

Which isn't the main reason we went in, and which you know the American people wouldn't have supported a war on that basis.

As I poke through the historical archives, what I find is that the Clinton administration's way resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents just to achieve a few years of containment, and the problem of Saddam kicked down the road.

Actually, you'll find that in April of 2001 Sec. Powell described Saddam as contained, and the problem of containment wasn't as costly as the present enterprise.

Of course, the fact that 100's of thousands of innocents died because of our war doesn't enter into your calculations, and rightly so.

As for evil, really? More evil than the Tamil Tigers who have used young women as bombers? I could cite other examples........

Neither do I see how it's morally defensible to abandon the Iraqi people to this total inhumanity even if every charge against the Bush administration is true.

Actually, without us in Iraq, Al Qaeda would lose their raison d'etre to be in Iraq, that is, to fight us, the evil Satanic infidels .

I think it's morally indefensible to keep our troops in Iraq as clay pigeons because Chimpy can't owe up to making a mistake, but call me crazy.

Actually Tom, Newt did, but there wasn't the uproar you'd have expected:

But as Speaker himself in May of 1998, Gingrich aggressively inserted himself into American foreign policymaking abroad when he took a high-powered Congressional delegation to Israel. He openly denounced the White House's Middle East policies and made public comments in direct defiance of the White House. Right before his trip he even described then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright as an "agent for the Palestinians."

Link

Also, Pelosi's trip was approved by the DOS as were those of her Republican collegues.

Of course, any motion on the Israel-Palestinian issue is scary for Bushco since it betokens the lack of movement they have made on the issue.

Tom, you perhaps need to do more than read MSM and right-leaning blogs, especially those of the latter which force the user to wear welders' goggles when viewing the site...........

11:11 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Gingrich's May 1998 trip to Israel and the Middle East as the head of a 25-member congressional delegation is indeed worth discussing. That he took our ally's (Israel's) side and not their enemy's (Arafat) is perhaps significant. Perhaps not.

Maybe he was wrong to do so, or even to be there in the first place. In fact, Newt's lack of self-control and decorum is exactly the reason I cannot support him for the presidency, although I agree with him on most everything.

On the other hand, Speaker Pelosi went to America's and Isreal's enemy Syria and made a total hash of it. Both Syria and Israel repudiated the message her so-called diplomacy bore.

And of course the casualties of the current Iraq war figure into my moral calculus. But the tens of thousands who died as a result of the Clinton administration's containment died for nothing except for a few years' breathing room. I don't know how you can argue otherwise, but perhap's you'll try. Go ahead, take some level of proof and moral responsibility. If you're simply about spitballs from the gallery, Prof. DA, spare us both the time and trouble maintaining the fiction of a sincere colloquy.

11:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't see how calling the SOS at the time 'an agent for the Palestinians' as taking our allies' side, but then you do show peculiar notions of logic here from time to time.

DA, spare us both the time and trouble maintaining the fiction of a sincere colloquy.

This is from the guy who cited Dick Morris as an equivalent to the folks that WS was talking about?

You might want to re-read that passage about beams and motes, it applies on a practical as well as a spiritual bases, FWIW.

Here's what a Republican said about Pelosi in Syria:

The Post accuses Pelosi of "try[ing] to introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East."

Heaven forefend! Things are going so swimmingly in the Middle East that the last thing anyone needs is for the 3rd highest official in the United States trying to resuscitate diplomacy.

The specific objection is to her meeting with the Syrian leader, Beshar Assad. Of course, few could object to what she told Assad -- that he should stop trouble making in Iraq and Lebanon, that the Israeli government is ready for negotiations, that Israel has no bellicose intentions toward Syria and that Syria should use its influence to free Israeli prisoners.

In fact, David Hobson, a Republican from Ohio who accompanied Pelosi, said that the Speaker did not stray very far from Bush administration policy. Hobson said Pelosi "did not engage in any Bush bashing. She did not...bash [Bush] policies as they relate to Syria." Instead, Hobson said, Pelosi urged Assad to curb the number of suicide bombers who cross the Syrian border into Iraq to "murder our troops and the Iraqi people."

Republican House leader, John Boehner, admitted that there was nothing wrong with legislators in general visiting Syria. "It's one thing for other members to go," Boehner said, "but you have to ask yourself, 'Why is Pelosi going?"

The answer isn't that hard. She went for the same reasons as Tom Lantos (D-CA), Chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs,as Henry Waxman (D-CA), the most senior Jewish Member of the House, as Keith Ellison (D-MN), the first Muslim-American in Congress, Rules Committee Chair, Louise M. Slaughter (D-NY), Nick J. Rahall II (D-WV), the senior Arab-Amerrican in Congress and Senior Defense Appropriator David Hobson (R-OH). She went to advance US interests in the Middle East, believing that we can perhaps get more out of Syria by engaging it than by shunning it.

The critics are feigning outrage because they don't like Pelosi (CNN, in particular, seems to have a problem with a female Speaker) and because, by visiting Syria, Pelosi has revived one of the Baker-Hamilton Report's prescriptions for ending the Iraq war: engaging Iran and Syria. And there is no document in recent times that neoconservatives ( i.e. the Washington Post's editorialists who, unlike their fine reporters, have been drum majors for the Iraq war even back when it was only a gleam in Douglas Feith's eye).

Baker-Hamilton recognizes that Syria and Iran can do more to impede the extrication of our soldiers and marines from Iraq than any other countries on the planet (with the exception of Iraq itself). On the other hand, if they choose to, they can ease our way out of Iraq and help prevent that country's further descent into chaos and civil war.

The Israeli government added to the Pelosi controversy by saying that Pelosi did not carry any private messages from Jerusalem to Damascus. But the Israelis have been using intermediaries to convey information to the Syrians for a long time. It is inconceivable that the highest ranking American to visit Damascus in memory would visit Israel, en route to Syria, and not be asked to convey a message to President Assad from Prime Minister Olmert. One can only hope that she was carrying messages from Israel. Why wouldn't the Israelis seize that opportunity?

Pelosi's visit strengthened America's position in the region, and likely helped Israel on prisoners, on Hezbollah, and in its effort to avoid another war like last summer's. It was a gutsy move by the new Speaker and one that deserves commendation, not criticism from those who are committed to the whole litany of failed policies of recent years. One would think that some of these pundits and others would look at the sheer carnage they delivered in Iraq – the 3200 American dead and the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians -- and be shamed into shutting up. But no such luck.

Link

But the tens of thousands who died as a result of the Clinton administration's containment died for nothing except for a few years' breathing room. I don't know how you can argue otherwise, but perhap's you'll try.

No, I would argue that if a person is in an iatrogenic fever, what you don't want to do is start bleeding them and or do other things to make them weaker, which is what we have done here.

In short, the 'medication' might've been bad for the population, but to argue that now that we've made life even more dangerous now for most Iraqis(except the Kurds, all they've got to worry about are the Turks, so that's a step up for them) than it was under Saddam they're somehow better off is willful blindness.

Your attempt to use second-rate rhetoric and your inability to address WS's posts in this area without yelling "CLINTON DID THIS AWFUL THING TOO!" as substitutes for facts and reasoning for your position is a tactic you might reconsider not using in the future.

12:23 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Jesus...Pelosi again, Rwanda...anything but Iraq.

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously on this, Tom, not because I presuppose your partisanship, but because there seems to be no other explanation for your repeated failed efforts to defend the indefensible actions of the administration. The more frequent, and the more obviously unsuccessful, such attempts are, the more it seems like you're just wearing partisan blinders or something here. Everybody acknowledges that there's always SOME defense that can be given against ANY charge...but your attempts to defend the Bushies just aren't adding up. You're obviously a smart guy, so I'm just baffled how you can honestly be making these arguments.

Rwanda was a godawful mistake. Clinton's worst mistake in office. A terrible error, even by the rather elevated standards of disastrousness associated with American foreign policy. But what exactly is the point of bringing this up?

The GOP would never have let him go in--period. Absolutely no one could seriously suggest otherwise.

Furthermore, it WAS an error of omission rather than commission, for what that's worth. We didn't go in, but neither did anyone else. EVERYBODY is to blame there. Iraq, that's all on us.

Rwanda was s terrible thing, but no Republican president in recent memory would have gone in, either, or even have considered doing so. The rabidly anti-Clinton congress would never have allowed us to do anything--hell, they screamed bloody murder when Clinton tried to kill OBL. "Wag the dog!" they cried, even as Clinton came close to stopping 9/11 from ever happening. (The Bushies, of course, refused to pursue bin Laden at all after they took office, but I'm sure there's some obfuscatory thing that can be said here, too.)

Furthermore:
I didn't say that Iraq was our greatest humanitarian mistake (neither was Rwanda); I said it was our greatest strategic error.

You want to dispute that? Fine: let me downgrade it to: one of our very biggest errors. I don't care about first place at all. It's the disastrousness I care about. I won't fight you about primacy.

Though I will note: even a significant number of significant Republicans now realize that I'm right on this and you are wrong.

In fact, everybody now realizes that your position is mistaken--except for a tenacious few American conservatives. Funny fact, that...

Despite your claims above, you don't know more than I do about what's going on, you're not more even-handed or level-headed, you're not more dedicated to pursuing the truth. The evidence is simply and overwhelmingly against you. As the National Review might say: Case Closed.

Nobody thinks that there were no great strategic errors before Bush.

Nobody thinks that Clinton did everything right.

Nobody thinks that Bush is 100% evil.

Nobody thinks that things aren't complicated.

Nobody thinks that it's impossible to dig around and find one or two issues on which the Bushies might just possibly have been at least partially right.

What every reasonable person thinks by this point is that this administration is stupid and/or corrupt and/or incompetent to degrees that are dangerous and, perhaps, almost off the scale. Cherry-picking a few items here or there simply isn't going to change this. Things have progressed way past that point by now.

The big picture is fairly clear by now: this administration has been about as much of a disaster as an administration could possibly be. Spin and nip and tuck all you want, it doesn't change the overall shape of things.

Your arguments simply don't add up. I'm not somehow demandng that you stop making them, I'm just saying that I'm not interested in swatting flies on this issue anymore.

I know a couple of creationists who send me stuff all the time and consider it some kind of victory if I don't respond to every single point in detail...but I finally realized that it simply isn't a smart use of my time. That debate is basically over, and it's time to move on. And that's how I feel about this one, too.

C'mon, Tom. The country's in a bad, bad way, and admitting that is one very important step on the route to setting things right...and trying to make sure it never happens again. Nobody's saying that all conservatives are inherently bad or wrong...but what many of us are pointing out is that if you can't even recognize/admit that *these* guys are bad and wrong...well, then you've got a problem.

12:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

No reasonable person could disagree with you? If that's not begging the question, I dunno what is.

DA, you print gushing praise of Pelosi from a well-known leftist (in bold face, thank you) and you expect me to do anything but laugh?

BTW, I wasn't faulting Clinton for not going into Rwanda, and I quite agree the GOP wouldn't have let him. But I brought up that and the Hama (Syrian) massacre to try to put some perspective into the sky-is-faling disaster scenario for Iraq. But that was admittedly a waste of time.

There is no perspective, but I do bring up the Clinton administration often in search of some (any) perspective because between his administration and Bush's, they represent a decade and a half, and almost all the adult lives of the readership. Any thought experiment must include Clinton, since things like Truman and the Korean war are met with total silence.


And yes, Dick Morris is certainly relevant and analagous to the original topic, but not a word was written about it, only Iraq. Again. All the time.

The fact remains that Clinton dealt with it by starving its people, Bush dealt with it by removing its murderous dictator.

No reasonable person can ignore that fact.

3:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Clinton didn't starve the people, Saddam did. I always thought Clinton should have just said, "Well, we never thought Saddam would be so callous toward the people of Iraq, but we got played. We have to restructure the sanctions regime."

Bush flouted international law to invade a country which had not attacked the US. We won't know what all the effects of that will be for many years, but we've already seen Putin use the war on terror to justify outrages in Chechnya.

Ends don't justify means; illegitimate means corrupt the end, no matter how noble.

-

9:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DA, you print gushing praise of Pelosi from a well-known leftist (in bold face, thank you) and you expect me to do anything but laugh?

That's if you read the part I italicized, not just the part I bolded.

That you choose to ignore signs of a true bipartisanship(not the Karl Rove variety) in this issue isn't surprising, as is your continuous
screaming of "Clinton" in about every thread.

And yes, Dick Morris is certainly relevant and analagous to the original topic, but not a word was written about it, only Iraq.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

As for murderous dictators, we were told that the possibility of his possessing WMD was too great a chance to take to let him rule unmolested, so to paint the invasion as some noble enterprise that was what the response to Rwanda should've been is just plain wrong, as in my comments above about iatrogenic diseases.

12:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obviously, it was all about the Iraqis' welfare.

Which is why there was no effort to use Iraqi companies for rebuilding, ammo dumps weren't secured, there was no effort to stop looting and widespread chaos and on and on...as well as the yeoman's effort to help Iraqi refugees:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/3/4352/38543

From the link:

"The U.S., which admitted 202 Iraqi refugees in 2006, has agreed to accept 7000 this year, the number that flee abroad every three days, according to the U.N. High Commission on Refugees, which will be meeting in Geneva April 17-18 to discuss the situation. And, while the U.S. is spending $8.4 billion each month for running the bloody occupation in Iraq, the Bush Administration has approved $18 million to deal with Iraqi refugees displaced within the country and the seven others where Iraqis have fled in the largest numbers. That $18 million is included in the $65 million approved by the House and Senate in the supplemental appropriations bill. About $13 per refugee."

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By contrast, here are the sentiments of a surrendering appeaser:

http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny05_ackerman/PR_070326.html

9:55 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

And DA's point is crucial, Tom (and one that's been made here many times):

Bush did not go into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. The humanitarian appeals were, apparently, a smokescreen.

So he doesn't get credit for good motives.

And apparently he just made things worse, so he doesn't even get the consolation prize of good consequences.

Saddam was bad--terrible, of course...
But the think about this administration is that it's so bad itself that it manages to make its enemies--evil though many of them are--look downright almost semi-respectable by comparison.

It's done it to both OBL and Saddam across wide swaths of the world.

That's a pretty amazing thing when you think about it.

9:56 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Man, I leave for a weekend and look what goes on...

Tom, do you not see that the posts here really go in circles?

So far, the general movement of this commentary seems to be this:

1. Bush sucks because of *lists reasons*. - WS
2. Clinton sucks because of *reasons* - Tom
3. Ok, some of those reasons are good, some not, but that's not the point. Bush sucks. How does that involve Clinton? -WS


It's taken us 30-some comments to get to that, but that's where we are. WS and the other posters will say Bush is either delusionally incompetent or just plain malevolent to the point of disastrous danger and giving good - very good - reasons to think so. Then, you will say something about how other people are bad too - you don't even give any good defense for Bush. Your responses to the posts regarding the Bush administration's faults are these:

1) "Dick Morris is quite relevant here. He's ignored because of the cognitive dissonance he brings with him. But he's a far more central and significant character than any of the aforementioned (anti-Bush) peripheral figures who are apparently given more credence.

I'm not down on Bill Clinton, who I think did the best he could, but Morris, who was there, reveals the bald opportunism of both the Clintons, one of whom is running to be our next president."


This was apparently in response to the fact that the Bush administration attempts to destroy anyone who used to support them and now disagrees with them (rightfully so).

Your tactic here is basically the "Other people suck too" line that you keep following.

2. "I disagree with your central premise, WS. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion that the Bushies are worse than the Clintons, but I think that's a function of the Clintons' doings going down the memory hole, coupled with the mainstream media's relative disinterest. Even if Dick Morris is scum, that doesn't necessarily mean that all his dirt on the Clintons is false.

My own premise is that neither side is more inherently virtuous than the other, and eventually you have to get to the substance of their differing political visions and quit what are essentially ad hominems."


Ok, the argument from the start wasn't that Bush is worse than others, it's that he's doing horrible things. Why compare it to other administrations? That's not relevant to the post that these comments are supposedly regarding. The post said "Bush does x" and "x is bad", not "Bush does x", "x is worse than what Clinton did" "Bush is therefore worse than Clinton".

Don't make it into that - once again, it's "Well Clinton sucked worse" - it just doesn't matter. You say that your idea is that neither side is more virtuous than the other and that we should get to the substance of their differences, but right there, you're already entertaining that comparison fight - not the simple point that what Bush is doing now sucks bigtime.

3. "WS, in light of the fact that Clinton killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children with the sanctions, I don't see how your moral judgment is self-evident. I cannot ignore that unpleasant fact, nor do I think anyone should.

I also cannot forget that Secretary Albright said those deaths were "worth it." Had it been Dick Cheney who said such a thing, that quote would be repeated daily by the press and the leftosphere.

And if Kosovo had sunk into the murderous depravity that Iraq has (which nobody but nobody anticipated), it could have turned into just as big a mess. It also could have resulted in Wes Clark dragging the Russians in and starting World War III, if you recall.

But it didn't. We got lucky. But we're judging outcomes here, and to attach moral condemnation to one president and not the other is not clear moral reasoning, only partisan sanctimony, hence my objection."


So now you're saying, once again, that Clinton was just as bad and the fact that he didn't face consequences for his actions is just luck, so we shouldn't praise him for lucky outcomes and we shouldn't damn Bush for unlucky ones?

Ok, that'd be somewhat relevant if you were arguing that Bush did all the right things and that the war tured out poorly despite his doing the right things. The fact is, Bush has done AWFUL things - so many awful things, in fact, that I don't see how the war could have possibly turned out other than it has. So again, you're saying "Clinton was just as bad, just more lucky" - NOT RELEVANT.

4. "WS...I think it was the right thing, and I'm not just being partisan.

...What I see is that Bush dealt with the Saddam problem by killing the bad guys, and giving the Iraqis their chance for freedom and self-determination. As I poke through the historical archives, what I find is that the Clinton administration's way resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents just to achieve a few years of containment, and the problem of Saddam kicked down the road."


Ok, so this is at least relevant to the Iraq war. Your argument is that Bush directly approached the Saddam Hussein problem (that you describe as being a humanitarian one since he's killing innocent people) by killing him and "freeing" the Iraqi people. You say Clinton responded by imposing sanctions that resulted in Saddam withholding resources from his people and killing them that way.

So we can chuck the Clinton reference because it's both flawed inherently and irrelevant. As for your description of what Bush did, WS has already pointed out that he didn't go in because of a humanitarian problem - he went in because he alleged that Saddam was a threat to the US and that he was somewhat of a co-conspirator in the 9/11 attacks.

Both lies.

So even if there is some humanitarian benefit (which there clearly isn't yet, since hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died in this war and the remaining live in constant fear for their lives) that does not earn Bush credit, because his goal was not humanitarian in nature.

If I push a lady to be mean and it knocks her out of the way of a speeding car, I get no credit for saving her life.

5. "Neither do I see how it's morally defensible to abandon the Iraqi people to this total inhumanity even if every charge against the Bush administration is true...it's a moral imperative to continue to defend the Iraqi people. We're already there."

I omitted your stuff about Pelosi, because, once again, it's NOT RELEVANT. You are like, the biggest red herring in the ocean.

So now your argument is that, even if Bush is the worst ever, we should stay in Iraq indefinitely because it's our moral obligation to defend those in trouble? Well, that's opening a whole new can of worms - one that is certainly worthy of discussion, but again, NOT RELEVANT to whether or not Bush is bad. It's simply "even if he is the worst, we should do x". That's not relevant.

6. "And of course the casualties of the current Iraq war figure into my moral calculus. But the tens of thousands who died as a result of the Clinton administration's containment died for nothing except for a few years' breathing room. I don't know how you can argue otherwise, but perhap's you'll try. Go ahead, take some level of proof and moral responsibility. If you're simply about spitballs from the gallery, Prof. DA, spare us both the time and trouble maintaining the fiction of a sincere colloquy."


So now you argue that, because Clinton - who did a very bad thing by killing those people with his sanctions - killed people for a few years "breathing room" whereas Bush has killed hundreds of thousands for the removal of a dictator who was going to kill..some number of them in the future (probably less than the amount we've killed with this war), that makes Bush good?

So Clinton sucked for killing 10,000 people for breathing room, but Bush is good for killing hundreds of thousands for the removal of a dictator that might have killed more people in the future.

What?

Also, don't even respond to this, because this ISN'T RELEVANT.
It doesn't matter what Clinton did, what matters is what Bush did, and again, you can't post something only about Bush - you must interject something about someone else.

7. "There is no perspective, but I do bring up the Clinton administration often in search of some (any) perspective because between his administration and Bush's, they represent a decade and a half, and almost all the adult lives of the readership. Any thought experiment must include Clinton, since things like Truman and the Korean war are met with total silence.


And yes, Dick Morris is certainly relevant and analagous to the original topic, but not a word was written about it, only Iraq. Again. All the time.

The fact remains that Clinton dealt with it by starving its people, Bush dealt with it by removing its murderous dictator."


For one thing, this isn't a thought experiment. Secondly, that did give me some insight to the problem here. If you think Clinton must necessarily be inserted into this debate, I think that's proof that you just misunderstand the nature of this debate. The debate is, again, NOT about whether or not Bush is the worst of all time. The debate is about whether or not he is doing horribly bad things. You keep responding by comparing him to others, but that does not make the things he's doing now good or even better, it just means, if you're right, that others did bad things too. But every point you bring up would be an entirely different argument - this is about Bush, not Clinton.

This is like the kid saying "But mom all the other kids get to stay up late".

It doesn't matter.



SO, after examining all 7 of the comments you've made (I think I actually split one comment into two, so all 6) it's found that not ONE single comment focuses on Bush. Every one of them introduces some aspect of some other administration and alleges that they do bad things.

I think it's beyond denial at this point that you aren't arguing in defense of Bush, but rather, via the most massive array of red herrings (or maybe just one huge one that you keep pointing to) on this blog to date, that others are bad, so why do we hate Bush?

The answer is simple: He is CURRENTLY owning our country with HORRENDOUS levels of atrocious malevolence, incompetence, and total disregard for the welfare of anyone on the planet other than himself.

So, whatever may be true of past administrations is not the point. The point is that what we've got now sucks huge ass.

Do you see that now, or do you think that, after reading all of your comments in line like that, that you were really expressing to us accurately a coherent defense of Bush in light of the facts?

I'm not saying you can't argue for Bush, I'm just saying you weren't. I think I've made that clear. So, can't we all just say "Yes, past administrations sucked too" and move on? Can't we, pleeeease? 'Cause seriously, if Bush has any hope of a defense, I think you're one of his best shots, and you owe it to him and to us to give us your reasons for not hating him as much as we do. If we're all missing something, we should know it before we spread our disinformation to others. In just the same way, you need to know if you're doing everyone a disservice by misappropriation of your brain cells to an indefensible administration.




P.S. Now for my irrelevance, I'd like to point out that you never responded to my questioning of your accusation that I started some sort of gay joke. I didn't.

1:17 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Are you coming on to me, Mr. Mystic?

As for the rest, the charge is that Dubya is somehow malevolent. That's demonization, ad hom, and in my view simply putrid.

My central point is that WS does assert that the left is more virtuous than the right, almost exclusively by harping on Iraq. (Which, on this occasion, actually, you yourself started.)

And so, I point out that Saddam was something that needed dealing with and it's my moral judgment (I am after all, permitted to disagree) that Clinton's method was arguably more malevolent. (I do not charge him with malevolence, tho. I'm simply employing the language of moral judgment and condemnation that is the standard hereabouts, in hopes of illustrating that it's entirely inappropriate.)

As for the original point, I'm simply amused that we're to give credence to these minor Bush administration figures whereas Dick Morris, who was at Ground Zero, is simply waved away (demonized, come to think of it---there's a pattern here...) because his charges are entirely too much to deal with.

I apologize that sometimes there are leaps that the comment format requires that may sometimes make it appear that I'm simply throwing things at the wall. But there is no way to make sensible judgments about Bush without seeking historical perspective, because the presidency is hideously complicated, and no one can survive the white glove test. There was never any "clean" way to deal with Saddam. Hence, the references to Clinton, and some attempt at perspective.

If one judges the world in absolute terms and forbids all comparisons, then surely an athlete who fails 60% of the time is horrible, heinous, the worst. But that would be a senseless description of Ted Williams hitting .400.

I'm not accusing Bush of hitting .400, but I reject that Iraq is the equivalent of hitting into a triple play, or that Clinton, a putatively good president, did any better facing Saddam.

Cheers.

3:15 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

"My central point is that WS does assert that the left is more virtuous than the right, almost exclusively by harping on Iraq. (Which, on this occasion, actually, you yourself started.)"

Despite the fact that he has said the following in this comment string alone?:

"Nobody thinks that the Democrats are great, Tom.

They're just the only semi-reasonable, not-entirely-crazy, quasi-competent, alternative available in American politics."

and he's said:

"Fact: The Bush adminstration sucks mega-bad.

Response: Oh yeah? Other administrations sucked too!

Indeed they did. Who on Earth would deny that Dick Morris is a despicable sh*t? No one I know. And it nauseated me that he was in the Clinton camp."


That doesn't sound to me like he's saying anything about how virtuous they are. Aside from that, which was a response to you, he doesn't even bring up democrats. Like I've said, the argument is that Bush sucks, not that the Democrats are perfect.

" there is no way to make sensible judgments about Bush without seeking historical perspective, because the presidency is hideously complicated, and no one can survive the white glove test. There was never any "clean" way to deal with Saddam. Hence, the references to Clinton, and some attempt at perspective."

I don't understand. Do you think that, without seeing how other presidents behaved, we can't judge the behavior of the president now? So, if Bush lies to send us to war, we can't judge that as being a bad action that no president should take unless we check to make sure others haven't done that? If everyone does it, it's ok? I don't get it.



As for Bush and "dealing" with Saddam -

The problem is, Bush lied in order to send us to war. Do I think this makes him malevolent? No, honestly, I think he probably thought that we'd justify the war after he started it 'cause he was soooo sure that Saddam was a threat. So sure, in fact, that he would risk lying about the intelligence in order to get us over there to stop him before he did something "evil". So, I think this makes him reckless and dangerous as a president, but not malevolent.

What makes him malevolent, I think, is that he CONSTANTLY labels people and things as "evil" and talks about how he is going to "bring the evil-doers to justice" (which means kill them because they are evil - Bush, in his six-year tenure as Governor of Texas, signed 152 death warrants, a record for any governor of any state in the history of the USA).

He started a war, not to defend us, but to kill evil-doers. He wants to kill, and I don't care what you think, if you want to kill, you are malevolent, in my book.

If you recognize that killing is the ONLY way to stop someone from harming/killing others in some extreme situations, and you reluctantly do it, then you are not malevolent. However, from the following quotes and information, we can determine that Bush wants to kill "evil-doers":

1) Bush's Response regarding Osama Bin Laden: "The only thing I know certain about him is that he's evil. And I don't know what to believe about him, except that he wants to hurt Americans."

2) Bush: "America faces an evil and a determined enemy."

3) Bush: "We're also fighting a war overseas, with the purpose of hunting down the evildoers and bringing them to justice. And I'm patient and I'm focused, and I will not yield. We must win."

4) Bush clearly believes in capital punishment as being valid for evil-doers. He signed a record number of death warrants for any governor in the history of the US: 152.

From 1,2, and 3, we can see that he believes we are fighting a war against evil people, and that we are trying to "hunt them down" and "bring them to justice". From 4, we can extrapolate from this "bring them to justice" euphemism that he believes that the solution is to kill them.

He's generated an "axis of evil". He is malevolent. He wants to kill many, many people because they are "evil". He's started, and is having them killed 24/7.

That's why I think he's malevolent. It's not demonization, it's the truth. He wants to harm people - it's not that he reluctantly accepts that some may die because there is no way around it - he wants to kill evil-doers. I don't need to look to history to make sure others don't do it to know that that is not a good thing.

7:27 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

So, to keep us on track, what I got from that is this:

1) You think that the only way to tell whether or not a president is bad is to compare him to other presidents.

2) If you think 1 is true, then you must be of the persuasion that there is no objective method by which one can tell whether or not a president is a good one. After all, you think the only way to judge one is to compare him to others - there's no objective guide to tell.

3) If you think that there is no objective truth, and only relative truth, which this appears to indicate, then you're a relativist.


So, if the only presidents in the history of presidents were horrific presidents - all being of equal horror-value, then each president would be judged as "average"?


If you're really as relativistic as you sound, then I guess there's no arguing, is there?

Am I not right?

7:34 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

And DA's point is crucial, Tom (and one that's been made here many times):

Bush did not go into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. The humanitarian appeals were, apparently, a smokescreen.

So he doesn't get credit for good motives.



I'm on shaky ground discussing Kant, but Kant seems to be exactly where you're coming from.

In the Kantian moral system, as I understand it, and please correct me in my wrongness, the only virtuous act is the one that is totally dispassionate, the act of pure will. But the weakness of that view is that that dispassion yields no guide on how to proceed with the problems of real life.

Neither does it give "credit" for behaving virtuously in bad circumstances where necessity (say, self-preservation) requires action.

Once again, we're discussing politics in moral terms, which is OK, but I'm entitled to challenge the moral vocabulary. (Strangely enough, I ran across a quote that seemed to be from Rawls that said Kant cannot be read without considering the underlying religiosity. The "credit" you and he refer to from Luke 6:32.)

However, the US could easily have indiscriminately bombed the hell out of Iraq (as, um, Clinton did to the Serbs), but we did not. There has been plenty of moral and humane forebearance and caution in the war, much of which has put American lives in danger, and some of which has cost American lives.

How can we say there is no "credit" in that?

Do we say that because the Kosovo intervention was "selfless," we give the carnage of the bombing of the Serbs from 40,000 feet a pass? Do we say that a riskless and dispassionate altruistic act deserves more "credit" than risking your own personal safety to spare the innocent, even if you're fighting a war for your own (and your nation and family's) security?

No, I can't buy that. Even if the Kosovo intervention had been conducted without any moral complications (which it wasn't), doing the right thing in the face of necessity, as we're trying to do in Iraq deserves "credit" too.

Further, at this point our men and women of the US military continue to support their mission because they're unwilling to abandon the innocents among the Iraqi people to the depravity of the monsters. At this point, at this moment, their mission and personal sacrifice deserves every bit of Kantian "credit" as Kosovo. To my mind, more, because the personal risk is greater.

What would Kant say about someone who tried to disrupt such dispassionate altruism? I cannot think he would approve.

The irony, of course, is that in the depraved moral system that celebrates the senseless murder of Iraqi innocents by the enemies of humanity we politely call "insurgents," ruthlessness is seen as a measure of depth of belief and committment to righteousness.

If we levelled Fallujah or Sadr City, now, that they could respect.


(I was just finishing up the above, Mr. Mystic. At first, I had much consternation about Bush's occasional use of the word "evil." But per the Dennis Prager article I linked to, I have changed my mind. However, I myself will use the word "depravity," which should be difficult to argue with.

This has gone far beyond any prediction of civil war and the routinely accompanying atrocities. We're into Marlon Brando in Apocolypse Now territory.

Not politics. Horror. Neither Bush nor me (nor Immanuel Kant I suspect), but most importantly, our heroic and morally admirable troops are willing to abandon the Iraqi people to it. Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) today seemed to back off the abandonment, and Sen. Obama seemed to do so last week, too.

I'm seeing signs just now that we're all getting serious about this...horror. And as is my custom, I excuse neither side of culpability.)

8:33 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Why, WHY did you make another offshoot?

No matter how I try, you just won't discuss Bush.

It's gotta be Kosovo, or Kant, or anything but Bush. Just anything but Bush.


Are you being relativistic here, regarding figuring out whether or not Bush is a bad president, or what? I'm trying desperately to get this thing back on the track on which it belongs, but you derail it again with every post.


We have to start from a starting point. If we don't, we just stumble around confused. The starting point seems to me to be whether or not you can accept the fact that there is a way to objectively judge a presidency without reference to other presidencies that have happened.

Do you agree, or do you disagree, as you seem to have indicated?

9:37 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Let me add real quick:

It's not that we shouldn't ever discuss what you bring up, it's just that before we can talk about whether or not Bush deserves credit for his actions, first we gotta understand that we do have the capability to judge him based on an objective logical system.

We can judge that if he lies to lead us into a war, that it's bad, and we don't need a reference to some other presidency to do it, right?

If you disagree, as you seem to, then we need to talk about that before we can even begin to think about whether or not Bush gets any credit for his actions.

9:40 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Well, I've been working on a reply even as you sent your last reply. I think I cover it all in here somewhere. In fact my already-composed opening seems to have anticipated your objection:

The problem is, Bush lied in order to send us to war.

See, that's called begging the question. What possible rebuttal is possible except, no, he didn't?

And dragging in the death penalty as Texas governor establishes Bush as malevolent even before he's elected president, so how could we even start to discuss his presidency on its own merits? What's the point?

(Bill Clinton broke off the presidential campaign trail to fly back to Arkansas to preside over the execution a retarded guy, for apparently politically opportunistic reasons. You could look it up. Apparently, your epistemological drug of choice didn't alert you to other, um, inconvenient truths.)

Poisoning the well, they call it. Bush is malevolent. And your mind's made up.

So now, your interest is apparently in morally condemning Bush, but I think he is a good man who has done the best he could. No, I don't think he did horribly bad things. I don't think Bill Clinton is as good a man, but I still think he did the best he could. I do not judge him, except in the abstract. They both did things that came out (for the sake of argument) horribly bad. But that is judging outcomes. My point is that there were no horribly good outcomes unless the presidency comes with a magic wand.

And I have strong doubts that you or me or WS have anything as moral persons or potential presidents on either of them. The feet of clay thing.

Relativist? Me? Sure, when it comes to judging presidents or baseball players. You might have missed the Ted Williams thing. Perhaps too obscure an analogy.

(And if you study up a little on the Korean War, which cost ten times more American lives and was far closer to total disaster [at one point, the Commies had overrun almost the entire Korean penninsula] and compare it to the current crisis, I would find that a worthy and worthier discussion. The perspective thing, all that.

And BTW, and as only a matter of coincidence, Ted Williams put his Hall of Fame career on hold to become a war hero in Korea. You could look that up, too. He might have broken Babe Ruth's HR record if he hadn't been a member of the original reality-based community.

Soon, Bush won't be president. The problems and moral dilemmas will remain.)

9:43 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

"See, that's called begging the question. What possible rebuttal is possible except, no, he didn't?
"


Yes, that's precisely what rebuttal is available to you. It's not "begging the question" (you love that one, don't you?). It's providing a premise in an argument. Yes, if you disagree with that premise, then you tell me why and explain why - that's how you argue. Did you take any philosophy classes..ever?

"And dragging in the death penalty as Texas governor establishes Bush as malevolent even before he's elected president, so how could we even start to discuss his presidency on its own merits? What's the point?"

Clearly, if I'm explaining why I think he's malevolent, I'm not limiting my explanation to his presidency alone. I see no problem in that - I wasn't criticizing his presidency by calling him malevolent, I was criticizing him.

"(Bill Clinton broke off the presidential campaign trail to fly back to Arkansas to preside over the execution a retarded guy, for apparently politically opportunistic reasons. You could look it up. Apparently, your epistemological drug of choice didn't alert you to other, um, inconvenient truths.)"

You're just mean. And irrelevant. Mostly both at once. Yet again, I don't care what Clinton did - I didn't even say I liked him. It's not an "inconvenient truth" - it's an "irrelevant truth". This is about Bush.

"Poisoning the well, they call it. Bush is malevolent. And your mind's made up."

Your ONLY argument against Bush being malevolent as I described him is that "Well, he didn't sign a bunch of death warrents when he was president." For one thing, he still did it, and for another thing, it doesn't matter that he wasn't president when he did. The fact is, he did sign that many death warrants, proving that he feels capital punishment is a fitting one, and that now we're stuck in a war where he's explicitly stated that the goal is to "hunt down" evil-doers and "bring them to justice".

When analyzing someone's mindset, I don't think we need to keep it to the presidency to do it. When analyzing the presidency, we can use his apparent mindset to assist us. That's all..I don't understand your refutation.


"And I have strong doubts that you or me or WS have anything as moral persons or potential presidents on either of them. The feet of clay thing."

I don't know what this means, unless you're saying none of us are good people, morally. I object to that, but it's NOT RELEVANT! SURPRISE, SURPRISE!!


"Relativist? Me? Sure, when it comes to judging presidents or baseball players. You might have missed the Ted Williams thing. Perhaps too obscure an analogy."

The Ted Williams thing made no sense. It was not a proper analogy. He batted .400 against pitchers who were also extremely talented athletes - so if you want an objective analysis of his talent, you would have to take into account the fact that responding to a pitch as a batter is inherently harder than throwing the pitch as the pitcher - that's why baseball doesn't involve games with scores in the hundreds.

It just doesn't matter - that analogy sucked. Do you honestly believe that Bush can't be analyzed as being good or bad unless you compare him to other presidents? Don't use an analogy - explain how that can be a viewpoint you hold without descending into relativism. Like I said, if every president sucked total ass, would they all just be "average" according to you?

That makes no sense.

I don't care about the rest of your post because it's NOT RELEVANT. QUIT TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN'T RELATED TO BUSH.

10:20 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I reject your attempt to stifle the debate and control the rules. The way you decree it should be conducted, there is no possible conclusion other than your own.

One cannot consider bad, much less mega-bad, without some standard of good. I can allow that Clinton might have been a good president only by considering what can reasonably be expected from a president. If one applies the white-glove test and argues by assertions of the abosolute, as is your custom, he was a bad president. Indeed, they were all bad. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus. Truman dropped the bomb and "started" the intractable (and far more bloody than Iraq) Korean War. They were mega-bad presidents.

Your defense of zero perspective isn't reasonable.

3:49 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Well, I've given up trying to keep up with you two, so I'm unclear on the specifics here, but, FWIW:

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with relying largely (though not solely) on comparative judgments in American politics, since the practical questions that face us (e.g. 'who should I vote for?')are often basically comparative ones.

Besides, to address the case at hand, any reasonable comparison of Clinton and Bush shows that Clinton is the easy winner...though the bar has been set absurdly low there. So I'd ordinarily welcome such a comparison.

The problem, of course, is that American conservatives went nuts about 13 years ago in a way that complicates the situation.

It's common to find conservatives who simply have nothing like a plausible view of Bill Clinton--they made up basically every crazy story about him you could think of, and continue to point to relatively few and relatively minor transgressions, blowing them up out of all proportion. They've proven that they're committed to the 'Clinton sucks' conclusion, and will stop at nothing to cobble together a case for it.

On the other side, it's also common for American conservatives to have an absurdly inflated view of George W. Bush. To be specific, many of them are entirely committed to the 'Bush doesn't suck' conclusion--which, modest though it is, is laughable by now.

And the interaction of the two things above is toxic: having spent so long radically exaggerating Clinton's badness AND Bush goodness, they can't even make the rather minor admission that Clinton (probably a B-ish president) was better than Bush (an F-ish president). So they've got to try to both get Clinton below a C and get Bush above one. Which, of course, forces them into crazy contortions of the wildest variety.

But, anyway, though there's an important place for comparative judgments, that's very different from simply trying to change the subject from 'Bush sucks' to 'Clinton sucks'. And, I have to admit, Tom, that's the way many of your posts come across. It may not be the way they're intended, but that's been my hypothesis many times. Even when I've outright busted you doing this kind of thing before, you've made vague allusions to "opening doors." So, even if that's what you mean to do, it's not how it sometimes comes across.

Now, I take it that one of the Mystic's points is: "I'm not concerned with whether or not Clinton sucks. I'm concerned with the fact that Bush sucks. If Clinton actually sucks as bad as Bush, then I'm willing to admit that Clinton sucks, too. But I'm simply not interested in that comparative judgment right now."

That seems like a perfectly reasonable point to me, and a point I'd be willing to agree with. I'm in no way committed to Bill Clinton. If he sucks he sucks. But that question is so peripheral and academic right now that I can't but be suspicious of the rights' repeated efforts to make this all about Clinton again. Or, rather, *still*.

Although, again, given that the facts so clearly support the 'Clinton was notably better than Bush' conclusion, and, given the right's history of anti-Clinton hysteria, and given their slavish devotion to Bush, I've got to say that it's hard for me to take their efforts to compare Bush and Clinton seriously. That is, as honest efforts to evaluate the facts, rather than as emotionally-driven efforts to cling to a treasured position.

Seems to me that conservatives who were genuinely interested in getting the ship of state back on course would admit that the captain's sub-par and go from there.

4:54 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I wrote the below in January for my blog, but never published it. So here you go:

Bush Sucks

My friends on the left demand that I admit it. OK, I do. In absolute terms, it's indisputable. Iraq sucks, ergo Bush sucks. There are those (30% of us or so, according to the polls) who are with him more than 50% of the time, which by poll reckoning marks us as "approving" of his presidency.

That makes me a Bush "dead-ender," even though he sucks, but if we get a little more relative, Gore and Kerry I suppose would have been more able to meet the challenges of this age. Perhaps, perhaps not---in any case, that cannot be taken as fact.

(A quick look at the menu for 2008 shows a similar dearth of obvious yumminess. We as a nation have a problem here.)

I appreciate the current conventional wisdom that Dubya is a very bad president, but as we know, Harry S Truman left office with an approval rating in the 20s, and it's indisputable that Bush's presidency has another 2 years to run. But make no mistake---I admit Bush sucks. It's beyond dispute.

Had Iraq turned out as well as the high mediocrity of the Afghanistan situation, those of us, now the majority, who are judging Bush negatively on his results (since few know his motivations or reasoning, and he's at fault for that himself with his philosophy of PR) might not be packing up our seat cushions with the home team behind in the bottom of the 8th inning.

Los Angeles Dodgers fans are famous for it, and there's always a bigger traffic jam at the exits earlier rather than later: our team is losing, and the manager's patently an idiot.

I'd stipulate both for the sake of argument, discussion, or just in the hopes of moving forward. But no American has the luxury of packing up his seat cushion and going home, which is just now occurring to the victorious congressional Democrats.

This isn't quite an original thought, as I'm seeing it form spontaneously in our public discussion: one of the other lessons of Vietnam was that well after our last helicopter departed in ignominy from the roof of our Saigon embassy, our congress withdrew all support, every dollar, from the South Vietnamese government.

The subsequent fall to the barbarians, not just in South Vietnam but Cambodia as well, dwarfed the horror of the actual horrible Vietnam War, and the moral responsibilty cannot easily be shifted to Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, or whoever was "responsible."

Speaker Pelosi, in a mostly softball interview with Diane Sawyer, when pressed about where to go from here, could only respond (multiple times) that it's Bush's war.

That's not how it works. That Pontius Pilate guy had nothing to do with any of it, but still he could not wash his hands clean. We're all in this, every one of us bearing moral responsibility for what happens next, and playing American Idol on Bush cannot change that fact.

But let's agree Bush sucks. We could build on that.

5:54 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Finally. Thank you. Now that's progress.

6:43 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Bravo, Tom.

Now let's move on...

(Though I WILL have to say that it's terribly unlikely that either Kerry or Gore would have been worse than Bush. Since W's in about the lowest decile of presidents, and since it's likely that K and G would have been about average...well, you see where this is going.)

Still, this makes me much more inclined to write my long-simmering "WTF are the Democrats DOING????" post...

11:01 AM  

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