Saturday, April 21, 2007

The Likely Outcome of Fighting Back Against an Armed Assailant

Here's the story of John Klang, a Wisconsin school principal who took a gun away from an armed student. Shot in the process, he died later that day. The student, of course, is not responsible, because he is the victim of something, and the principal, of course, just made things worse by trying to take his gun away.

So that's what awaits you if you resist: probable death, even if you succeed, and slanderous comments about you in defense of your murderer.

Sidebar:
On the other hand, there might be at least some (and maybe more than some) truth to some parts of the killer's story. I went to a fairly small and very tame grade school, ditto high school. I think I graduated just before we really started hearing horror stories about violence in public schools. Nevertheless, I suffered frequent humiliation until I learned to fight. After that, I fought a fair bit, and watched others who didn't endure humiliation, helping them out when I had the physical and psychological resources. There was a small number of predatory students who spent their days terrorizing weaker and meeker kids. It wasn't south central L.A. or anything, but I witnessed some poor kids live hellish lives of repeated humiliation. If one of those kids had brought in a gun and shot one of his tormentors, frankly I wouldn't have thought it that unreasonable. This is not to advocate such action, but just to report my opinoin at the time. (Why anyone would start killing people indiscriminately, though...well, I just can't answer that one.)

Of course, when you did fight back, you got in trouble for it. The bad kids didn't care about that, of course, but the good kids did. Punishing people for defending themselves is, I still think, about the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

The teachers let this go on because, first, they usually didn't see it, and, second, they were kind of afraid of the mean kids, too, even though there was no physical threat to them. I came to think that most of the teachers had been picked on themselves and had never quite gotten over it. Consesquently, they were hesitant to confront the bullies, and, in fact, kind of relieved when the mean kids struck up a kind of alliance--or, at least, cease-fire--with them. It was as if some of the teachers actually enjoyed the fact that the mean kids kind of semi-befriended them. It seemed as if that made them kind of regress, as if the bullies of their own youth had finally stopped terrorizing them. Very speculative, that, but that's the hypothesis that suggested itself to me at the time.

So what's the point? The point is in no way to attempt to justify the unjustifiable, nor to excuse the murderous. It's rather something like this: there are plenty of reasons to stop bullying in schools. Rather far down on the list is this one: some kids will be bullied until they come back and kill. Now, if they only killed the bullies, I have to say I wouldn't be all that concerned about it. But that's not the way it will happen.

6 Comments:

Blogger The Mystic said...

You are correct - but the thing that leads to those indiscriminate rampages is being pushed so far and betrayed by those you thought were friends so many times that you start to see evil in everyone and you want them all dead. Not that this is reasonable, but it happens.

10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The defense in the Hainstock case is obviously full of crap. But bullying is a real problem, and it does lead to helpless rage. The meek wind up with no one to turn to, the faculty (like cops in the real world) have to see the offenses and sometimes prefer to ignore patterns of small abuses, and there's no way out.

Lots of basic rights stop at the schoolhouse door:
- due process
- self-defense
- culpability only for one's own actions
- privacy

Certainly by high school, schools should begin devolving responsibility for discipline onto their citizens, the students. One of the main reasons we have public schools is to prepare young people for citizenship; we're thoroughly missing this opportunity in a relatively constrained environment to show them how it works. Instead, we generally give them authoritarian regimentation in the faith that our despotism is benign.

Experience has shown peer groups are harsher in punishing offenders than faculty, if you're worried about that, maybe because the kids understand the victim's side, as well as the perpetrator's. I think kids could sort out who was acting in self-defense in a way that the faculty never could.

Of course, there would be problems in racially charged settings. I spent one year of high school in an uneasy peace where any fight between a white kid and a black kid appeared to have broader meaning even if it didn't. There was one kid I should have smacked but didn't because of that.

There are also grudges and clique loyalties, so the jury pool of teens would have to be selected carefully. Still, it could work - we adults are not that much smarter or more conscientious than adolescents.

11:46 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Well I typed up a nice response and then the window closed and removed it without posting it after I clicked the post button.

Main points:

WS is right about the self-defense point. I went to a school where they simply suspended/expelled anyone who participated in a fight, be it defender or aggressor. As it always went, the aggressor was ALWAYS a bastard who didn't care about school or just wanted to hurt people and the defender was either the same or a poor kid who actually cared about school and tried as hard as he could not to be suspended.

I refrained from defending myself in at least 4 fights because I didn't want to be suspended. In all four of them I was able to just dodge the attack and run away, but that just placed me further down on the social ladder with the "wusses", enticing more people to attack me.

LL, you are right - school should be preparation for life in the country, but it's not. They only teach the bare minimum they're required to teach and none of it includes anything about philosophy, logic, analyzing and supporting or removing public policy, discussing rules and regulations, nothing. That's why our voting body is so pitifully clueless. I guarantee you bush wouldn't have been elected if high school and middle school required that everyone participate in discussions of school policy and had their say in how the policy was implemented and enforced. Hell, it might even make there be less infractions against that policy because the students would feel that they implement it - not that they are simply under the faculty's control.

2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree that suspending somebody for defending himself is a stupid thing to do. However: I got in one fight where--by accident--the other guy--a notorious no-good-nik--was badly injured, out of school for a month. The punishment was a slap on the wrist from the Vice Principal, and sub-rosa congratulations from various teachers. So the hypothesis about teachers letting the bullies slide is not uniform.

5:45 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

By the way - just thought I'd point this out.. at the bottom of your link:

"Caldwell said touching Hainstock triggers memories of abuse and kicks his aggression to another level, adding the principal may have inadvertently made matters worse by tackling Hainstock and escalating his rage.

However, "I would never imply he did the wrong thing," Caldwell said of Klang, who has been called a hero."


No one's saying Klang is the problem, and no one's saying the kid isn't the perpetrator of the crime - they're saying that the kid's victimhood mixed with Klang's actions triggered some latent defense mechanism in his brain that caused him to kill Klang.

It may or may not be true, but the point is - they don't seem to be doing what you're saying they're doing. No one's saying it's the principal's fault - they're just saying that the kid needs help because he is mentally ill, which I'm inclined to agree with (if you take 'mentally ill' to mean 'has very dangerous, psychotic views ingrained into his brain'). In addition, they claim that his mental illness contributed to his actions.

Even if the defense is making the argument that he's not to blame for what he did due to his mental illness (a concept which I struggle with, truthfully), they're certainly not saying the principal did the wrong thing. In fact, they explicitly state that that's not what they're saying at the bottom there - just that his actions might have triggered something in this kid that added to the reasons he did what he did.

If he hadn't done what he did, the kid probably would've been "triggered" by something else and killed people anyway, so Klang still did the right thing.


The point is: while they might be wrongfully saying that it's not the kid's fault due to some sort of mental incapacitation, I don't think you can say that they blame the principal. Saying that his actions contributed to him getting shot is just speaking the truth. Tackling someone and putting him in a bear hug when he has a gun is hardly the best way to go about disarming him for this very reason. You're pretty much dooming yourself to getting shot with that move. That's not to say the principal wasn't behaving nobly - just that it contributed to his getting shot, which it irrefutably did.

5:48 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Well, they're *saying* that's not what they're saying, anyway...

7:32 PM  

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