Saturday, May 13, 2006

Anti-Civility on the Moderate Left

Incivility is often said to have been the norm in (at least American) politics. Since at least Reagan, it has seemed to me that mainstream conservatism has been moving farther to the right. For about the same period of time, it's seemed to me that political discourse on the right has been becoming less civil. Since at least the ascendancy of Rush Limbaugh, much political discussion on the right seems to have become downright vicious. Now it is the norm there.

I used to think that this was something peculiar to the right, until I encountered leftist extremists in graduate school. I discovered that they were at least as vicious as folks on the right. In many ways the leftists I encountered--in person and in print--were actually worse than the rightists I'd encountered. I came to think that hateful discourse was something associated with extremists of both stripes. The radical left, however, is a fringe in America, whereas the radical right is a powerful force here. That's why incivility had seemed to be a right-wing phenomenon.

When I started this blog, one of my main goals was to try to discuss issues in a civil way. I suppose it's obvious that I haven't always lived up to that ideal. In my defense, I think that the Bush administration is enough to--as my dad would say--make the Pope cuss. Still, to my shame, I often find myself being dismissive, derisive and dogmatic. But my failure to live up the the ideals in question doesn't make them bad ideals. It just makes me incontinent. (snicker)

It's important to strive for civility in political discussions. One important reason for this is a purely instrumental one: we're more likely to achieve rational consensus and converge on the truth if our discussions remain largely civil. The more derisive we are towards each other in our discussions, the more firmly entrenched we become in our antecedently-held positions. If we're discussing whether or not p, and I start out by saying that only a liar or an idiot could defend not-p, then you will almost certainly automatically become defensive about your belief that not-p, and resistant to changing your mind. We'll be engaged in argument, not inquiry. It's hard to make progress in political discussions, but that's only partially because the questions are difficult. In large part its because of psychological factors of this kind. Dogmatism and incivility breed dogmatism and incivility, and dogmatism is perhaps the greatest enemy of reason and truth. As Nietzsche has noted, it's often not what is said with which we disagree, but, rather, the tone in which it is said.

Many blogs are fairly uncivil places. A couple of years ago, folks in the blogs I frequent came to the consensus that cyberbalkanization is not a problem. I think they were and are wrong about that and tried to convince them of this at the time, but you know how such things go. (For one thing, it's hard to get bloggers to agree that blogs are bad in some important way.) People tend to frequent blogs with orientations they find congenial, and that means that people tend to flock together in relatively uniform communities of opinion. Under such conditions, one might predict that smaller and smaller differences of opinion might begin to seem more and more significant. Whether cyberbalkanization has played a major role in the growth of incivility is unclear, but it would not be surprising it if had.

My point here, though, is not to say something about incivility per se. And although incivilty seems to me to be on the rise in leftish blogs (I don't know whether it's frequency is changing on rightish ones), that's not what I want to discuss, either. What I'm really concerned about is that it seems to be more and more common on relatively centrist leftish blogs to encounter advocacy of what we might call anti-civility. I've encountered many leftish folks recently who can barely conceal their contempt for any appeal to keep the discussion civil. In some placed its become close to a kind of inside joke--though that's not really a very good description of it. It's like a line that's always good for a kind of snicker or knowing smile. Like, e.g., in philosophy, it's almost always possible to elicit a snicker if, in the middle of a discussion, you say "of course that might just be true for me," or "well, who's to say?" Relativism is (rightfully, IMO) such a joke that the mere mention of it is good for a cheap quasi-laugh. That's the way I've frequently seen civility mentioned of late. It's as if it's on its way to becoming the newest article of leftish orthodoxy: civility: bad.

Needless to say, I could be wrong, this could be a sampling error, or it could be a mini-fad that will just die out. Also needless to say, I hope it's one of those. But right now this seems to constitute a real problem. Like so many opinions, this one seems to be based partially one an at least moderately reasonable insight, this being that some make bogus appeal to civility as a way to insulate the powers that be from criticism. Such bogus appeals are rightly ridiculed. But not all appeals for civility are sneaky attempts to dampen legitimate criticism. That's certainly not why I, for example, encourage it. Condemning appeals for civility because they might be misused is like condemning appeals for passionate advocacy because they might be misused. What should be condemned is the illigitimate appeals, not all such appeals. Civility and passionate advocacy are both good when properly engaged in.

But much of the anti-civility fad is merely unreflective and irrational, not based on any good reasons whatsoever. This often the nature of such beasts: a small insight that gives a veneer of plausibility to an irrational preference or unreflective inclination. Much of it is just monkey see-monkey do. People are mad--and justifiably so--and this primes them to embrace a theory that says that unbridled expressions of anger are good. And then this becomes the latest badge of blogospheric chic. All the cool kids are dissing civility...you fucker.

This is the point at which the bogus defenses kick in. It'll be charged that I'm advocating docility, which I am certainly not. In fact I think we're far too docile as it is. I'm one of the most ardent advocates and devoted practitioners of speaking truth to power you'll ever meet. You don't know me, so I can't prove that, but I could if you did. I think that we live in dangerous times, and that we face a genuinely immoral, irrational, and criminal administration. If it were up to me, there'd be anti-administration protests on the Mall every couple of weeks. Nobody here is advocating docility, passivity, or deferential politeness. I think we need to tell it like it is, but to do so in a way that doesn't go out of its way to piss people off. Or, rather: we need to do it in a way that pisses people off in the right way. They need to be pissed off at the administration, not at its critics. Unbridled anger isn't effective in the long run in a democracy. It won't effect political change, it won't forge consensus, it won't change minds. It breeds dogmatism in part by making people disinclined to reflect on their views and admit their errors. (And by 'them' I also mean us.) Unbridled anger is particularly ineffective when used by liberals; their base is largely averse to it in a way that a large part of the conservative base is not.

Knowing the propensity of liberals to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, I've begun to wonder how we might screw this up now that the criminality and incompetence of the Bush administration have become so manifest. What I've been discussing here is one way we might do it. We might give in to our anger and go over to the dark side, embracing the very source of power that drive the Coulters and Hannitys and Norquists of the world, thus driving away the very centrists and independents who are ready to ally themselves with us. And, what's perhaps even worse, corrupting ourselves in the process and making ourselves not merely incapable of but also unworthy of victory exactly when our country needs us most.

22 Comments:

Blogger Random Michelle K said...

This is very interesting for two reason.

First, today on Making Light, one of my favorite places, I saw a sidebar entitled "Fuck Your Civility," which lead to a page that seems to disagree with what you're saying here.

So I don't think you're off base in your conclusions.

Second, thing is, I don't think liberls understand the danger of hanging out only with people who agree with you. (I can't really speak as well to conservatives, because I *am* in WV after all.)

For example, Friday at work there was a brief discussion on the next presidential election, and they were talking about the Dems putting up Hillary Clinton. My stunned response was, "She's unelectable! The Republicans despise her!" My reaction was immediately pooh-poohed; she could certainly be elected! I said that most of the Republicans I knew couldn't stand her--even the ones that tolerated her husband--and this too was brushed off.

I realized this is just a single example, but if Democrats are willfully blinding themselves to what is happening in the other camp--and even in the middle--then they're screwed.

Of course the same holds true for both sides--if you aren't listening to what the other side is saying, then how are you ever going to work together?

And it *is* difficult to find moderate blogs. I almost never write about politics anymore, because the whole situation sickens me, and because I find it nearly impossible to write about the current president with any degree of impartiality. (And I also don't need my writing to descend into the sputtering jibberish that I achieve when listening to the news.)

Thus I become more and more convinced that the two-party system may be the death of the US political system.

9:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I like most about the blogosphere is it's similarity to the town hall/public tavern environment in which our democracy was intended to flourish. With that in mind, your call for civility takes on new dimensions.

Today, our public discourse has degenerated to a virtual Egg and Tomato Pelting. Regardless of who started it, namecalling, sloganeering and blind hatred have diluted the power of reasoned, civil argument and the scary thing is that it seems to be getting worse. The mob now seems willing to lynch it's own, given the right conditions. (That is, any disagreement with or questioning of accepted dogma or authority figures, whether it's Hillary Fer Prez or Roger Ailes.)

That said, I'd like to commend you, Winston, for daring to call attention to a cancer and for having to courage to live your ideals.

10:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You seem to think that if people disagree with you -- say, about your worries about left incivility -- then they are not really engaging with the real issues. I just think your wrong, and your passive aggressive stance on Ailes' blog (TNR is great because it gets both sides! You people who didn't get or agree with what I said are just morons! Who aren't nice and are ruining the left!) suggests that you have issues you are not really addressing. You signed off on Ailes' blog with "ad hominem" and "screed" and "sadly, you've confirmed my point," without argument or example, in the kind of hand-wringing oh if only people were as thoughtful as I am that makes so many of us suspicious of calls to civility in the first place.

To put it another way -- I find your tone condescending and offensive. Maybe Nietzsche would have too. Of course, you think the something similar about me, but that's the way it goes sometimes. I'm not going to ask you to be all nice just because you disagree with me.

As to the empirical test for whether anger and resentment can fuel change -- I see no reason to think your right. Whether we want to go down that road, or even can, is another question, but the link between civility and electoral efficiency is surely a weak one.

"Much of it is just monkey see-monkey do." That's not civil, it's patronizing. And it comes without example, or much in the way of argument. You want to charge people with a lack of self-reflection, make an argument, don't be so stinking rueful.

david

11:26 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Well, David, as always, I could be wrong. That's one of the reasons I think it's important to try to keep things civil.

But I also think one should call a spade a spade--or a moron a moron, or confirmation confirmation.

There does come a point at which it's o.k. to point out that someone's being stupid. It's *certainly* o.k. to point out that someone has made an *ad hominem* when they've made an *ad hominem*.

I'd never deny any of those things...I just think the points in question--the point, e.g., at which it's o.k. to indicate that someone's being stupid...come way farther down the road than many folks do.

The way the Ailes "discussion" went was, sadly, typical of many such discussions now. I went in and made a perfectly reasonable point. People immediately began calling me an idiot, a conservative, an apologist, whatever. Atrios came in and pointed out something I'd missed, and I admitted that I'd made an error on one substantial point. Then more vilification, then Ailes pointed out that something had, indeed, been less than clear in the post, then more vilification. Then I made an appeal for civility--an appeal supported by good arguments--then followed more mindless vilification.

Now, mindlessness is stupid, and the spittle-flecked screeds were spittle-flecked screeds, so I pointed that out. Since my point was that even minor disagreements on the left today generate angry denunciations, and since this point was angrily denounced, it seemed appropriate to point out that confirmation of my point seemed to have been provided.

Then followed the inevitable (and silly) cries of hypocrisy.

Those seem to have been predicated on a misunderstanding of my position, so let me attempt to clarify: I think it's fine to call someone stupid if they're obviously being stupid. What I don't think is alright is to immediately begin a discussion by calling someone stupid because they've questioned a minor point of dogma.

12:02 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Thanks very much for the support, Michelle K and Seen and Heard. The non-stop stream of vilification gets tiring. A little support is surprisingly invigorating!

12:04 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Oh, one more thing:

As to David's point about the empirical question about the link between anger and electoral change:

He's right about that. We don't know what the link is like, and that claim is unsupported in my argument.

12:06 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

WS, your TNR claim was (to my mind anyway) idiotic, and a red flag to people who don't know you. Many on the left think that the TNR approach has greatly aided the right and (esp. given its poor track record on e.g. Iraq) is insufferable in its hectoring of us. TNR is Andrew Sullivan - some writing talent, some reasonable points, lots of stupidity and contrarianess for its own sake, plus an addiction to scolding the proved-correct left. In any case "both sides criticize me I must be doing something right" is awful reasoning.

Something important in the civility conversation is that many on the left believe that the position you (entirely reasonably) take has been abused by others to stifle dissent and disagreement. Another point is the question of whether there is more hay to be made in convincing the middle or riling the base. And of course there's the why couldn't Gore/Kerry/Dem X just let it rip and force people to respect their passion?

1:45 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

WS, your TNR claim was (to my mind anyway) idiotic, and a red flag to people who don't know you. Many on the left think that the TNR approach has greatly aided the right and (esp. given its poor track record on e.g. Iraq) is insufferable in its hectoring of us. TNR is Andrew Sullivan - some writing talent, some reasonable points, lots of stupidity and contrarianess for its own sake, plus an addiction to scolding the proved-correct left. In any case "both sides criticize me I must be doing something right" is awful reasoning.

Something important in the civility conversation is that many on the left believe that the position you (entirely reasonably) take has been abused by others to stifle dissent and disagreement. Another point is the question of whether there is more hay to be made in convincing the middle or riling the base. And of course there's the why couldn't Gore/Kerry/Dem X just let it rip and force people to respect their passion?

1:45 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

"A little support is surprisingly invigorating!"

WS is the civilest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life...

2:23 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Rilkefan,

Your claim about my TNR claim being idiotic is (to my mind, anyway), idiotic.

The point may have been wrong, but it was close enough to the mark to garner agreement from some commenters, a clarification of the post by Ailes, and an intervention by Atrios to clarify the crucial point. My point was fine and my tone was civil. The problem was that it generated instant venom from other commenters.

The problem on the left now is that a vast number of reasonable dissenting comments--even requests for clarification--instantly evoke vicious (and often ignorant) responses. If you don't see what's wrong with that, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do to help you.

There's a better way of conducting ourselves that's readily available, and this new tendency is cancerous, and it will almost certainly weaken liberals if it has any effect at all. But you want to do it that way, well, it's your right.

I mean think about the details, man: *we're still niggling and whining and screaming about STEPHEN F*CKING COLBERT*.

We've got to the point where merely not finding the guy funny means that you're a neo-con. Now this is stringency unmatched since Stalin. It's a kind of madness.

Nobody here has claimed that anger at Bush is unwarranted. I'd bet large amounts of money that my anger at the guy shot off the scale long before yours did, in case you're one of those people who needs me to reveal my Bush-hating credentials in order to be taken seriously. So nobody here's saying that we should watch what's going on and take it lying down. What I'm saying is that we needn't start eating our young just as we're about to start winning.

Of course some people have used appeals for civility for bad purposes. And some people deny that Colbert was funny b/c they don't like his message. Anyone who elects to, as a result, denounce anyone calling for civility or opining that Colbert wasn't funny has gone off the deep end indeed.

The liberals in question are becoming more and more like the extreme left, and the extreme left is morally and intellectually indistinguishable from the extreme right. You want to go that route, I can't stop you. Go ahead on then. Live in that cesspool of bile if you want.

But you'll go without me, and without lots of people like me, and without a majority of Americans. Currently my anger resources are just about all used up on al Qaeda and the Bush administration. I've got no time for these preposterous internecine disputes about which comedians should be discussed on CNN.

And as for TNR: it ain't perfect by a long shot, but at least its intellectually honest, which is more than I an say about any of the publications currently sanctioned by the Blogitburo (with the exception of The Washington Monthly, which may get a pass b/c of Drum...though even people like Drum and Kleiman aren't ideologially pure enough to have escaped the wrath of some.)

Put TNR on the Index if you want. Go read The Nation or Mother Jones or whatever passes the purity test in your mind. TNR went wrong under Sullivan, but that's why he got the boot. Their case for invasion was a good one, in the ballpark by a mile. They were wrong about it, but they were wrong for reasons that were a lot better than man proffered by people who turned out to be right.

I predicted long ago--as anyone could have--that whichever way the war went, the side who predicted that would insist that this was inevitable and obvious to everyone before it happened. Well it wasn't obvious. The war was wrong, but I know many reasonable, well-meaning people who supported it after tortured deliberation, and supported it for reasons that I was unable to refute.

I didn't support it, but I'm objective enough to recognized that many who agreed with me had bad reasons, and many who disagreed with me had good reasons.

It's important to learn that lesson--that not everyone who disagrees with you on every point is an idiot or a liar or a criminal.

Sadly, this is a lesson that leftish parts of the blogosphere are forgetting.

Thank god nobody gives a good god damn about blogs.

2:26 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

"The point may have been wrong, but"

See, here's where you lose the thread. You waltzed into a conversation where people don't know you and lectured them on civility using a false claim from the POV of people who've been lecturing them on this same point as a way of getting around having to make a mea culpa. Of course you're going to get mocked. And when Ailes accepts some of your reasoning, you don't take that as counterevidence to your claim.

And I want to mock people who denied Colbert was funny because they disliked his message. Because it's funny, and they are deserving of mockery.

If you have no time for media criticism, you have no business discussing politics or being an activist.

The Nation mostly sucked last time I followed it, except for Katha Pollitt. Mother Jones never did much for me. Guess why I read blogs. TNR is of course not in fact intellectually honest, not having faced the implications of their failures in responding to the Bush admin, bbut we've had this conversation in the Berman context already, and anyway the main thing to take away here is that WS is the civilest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life...

3:57 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Yes, TNR IS, in fact, quite intellectually honest by the standards of such journalism, and repeating "no they aren't" over and over again won't make it so.

Nobody "lectured" anybody on civility. I just made my points and they freaked out. You want to hang out with guys like that, be my guest. As I said, it doesn't both *me* when morons spew froth in my direction...what I worry about most is the disintigrating character of the blogospheric left.

What you seem to be saying is that you can't disagree with people who don't know you if your point sounds anything like a point that an (EGAD!) *conservative* might make.

What I'm saying is: clarify and try to explain first, get mad later (if at all).

You're now doing something that's become the stock-and-trade of folks on blogs: ignoring anything true in what was said in order to spin and nip and tuck and squint until you can gerrymander a criticism.

I would in no way claim that anything that I say about anything is perfect or beyond reproach. Hell, I think I had missed the point of Ailes's post, and I admitted as much.

None of that will change the fact that people on the left are, apparently, starting to go nuts and refuse to brook even the slightest criticism of their orthodoxy.

You might as well just send money to the RNC if you're going to support that kind of bullshit.

But, of course, many of the people who are now shrieking at anyone who says anything that a Bush supporter might agree with are the very people who voted for Nader. I couldn't get through to them about the severity of the threat Bush posed then, so I don't expect to be able to do so now.

Toeing the party line, getting pats on the back from fellow dittoheads, wallowing in a pit of groupthink and expressing their feewings is what seems to be important to these folks.

So be it. When I see the worst of the left, it makes me a little less angry that the right is in power.

4:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Winston, TNR sucks. Beinart sucked. Foer will be better, but Peretz will make him suck.

I notice, again, that you patronize your interlocutors, but offer no examples. Repeating "yes it is" over and over again makes you a douchebag.

1) "any of the publications currently sanctioned by the Blogitburo"

2) "But I also think one should call a spade a spade--or a moron a moron,"

2) is what sanctions me to call you a douchebag, because of 1) another stupid left-baiting trick, among other things.

david

6:30 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Hah. You thought you were Winston Smith, but it turns out you're Emmanuel Goldstein.

8:12 PM  
Blogger rilkefan said...

repeating "no they aren't" over and over again won't make it so.

Like repeating it is over and over will? Look, you missed out on a long conversation among sensible people coming to the conclusion they've got a problem. Then you come in saying 'tsk tsk and TNR's great' and a couple of people mock you.

I entirely agree with you that the correct thing to do is to explore the conversation space before getting angry - my claim is that you've behind on the conversation and ought to catch up before making judgements on people's rhetorical stances.


david, you're not helping. WS is a good guy, if occasionally stubbornly wrong about surprising things.

8:17 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

David,

My god, you really are a stupid fuck, aren't you? Since you don't seem to have two neurons to rub together, how about going elsewhere? See, we've got a kind of informal policy around here that only people who've either read a book in the last decade or who have IQs in triple digits post comments. You seem more like the crayons-and-fat-pencils type, mercifully bereft of the ravages of intelligence.

So, seriously, man. Don't go away mad--just go away. We like to keep things relatively civil around here under normal conditions. Since you are incapable of--or insufficiently intelligent to--do so, go away. There are plenty of blogs where your mindless political cant will be welcome. But not here. In fact, I'll make you a deal: you refrain from coming on this blog and being a stupid, inarticulate dildo, and I promise not to come on *your* blog and discuss things intelligently and civilly. Deal?


Dustin,

Thanks for the interesting comment. Well, I agree that civility should not be pursued to a fault...nothing should, of course... As I think I've made clear, there's a time to get mad (see above). When you're dealing with criminals or the willfully stupid, anger is a reasonable response. In fact, anybody who's NOT mad at Bush by now must not be paying attention. What we're disagreeing about here--so far as I can tell--has to do with matters of degree, and questions about when other considerations trump the reasons in favor of civility.

Those on the left who now advocate incivility as a matter of principle seem to be arguing...well...it's hard to say what they're arguing, because their position isn't very well-articulated...but it's something like this: what we need is less civility in American political discourse. But what do they mean more specifically? As bored as I am with this stupid Colbert BS, let's use that as an example. Colbert went to what was supposed to be a friendly "roast" sort of affair and flamed the president to his face. Rude, indeed. In most cases I'd say that this was uncivil and, well, a cheap shot. Impermissible.

This president, however, is so bad that I think that what SC did was warranted, rude though it was. There's so much at stake here that we can't really worry about rudeness as we normally would.

Now think about the other aspect of this: the psychotic vilification of anyone who doesn't think that the Colbert affair was the greatest thing ever, or who doesn't think that CNN's lack of coverage was the crime of the century. Now, this is bizarre in the extreme. It's a blueprint for intellectual decay. If you can't have a civil disagreement with someone over something this esoteric and peripheral...well, what *can* you disagree about intelligently and civilly? That is, if we push the incivility frontier this far forward, we'll be screaming and cursing at each other over *everything*. (Chocolate or vanilla? F*CK YOU A**WIPE!!!)

In short: yes, of course there's a time to get mad and be uncivil. But it comes way farther down the road than the anti-civilians would have it. Anger at those who willfully do wrong is one thing...frothing-at-the-mouth denuciations of those who fail to toe the party line in every jot and tittle...well, that's just madness.

One wonders, incidentally, whether the lefty dittoheads have the courage and gumption to get out and do anything important, or stand up to anyone who needs to be stood up to, or whether they limit themselves to bitchy anonymous drive-by comments on blogs where there is no risk and nothing is at stake...

7:50 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Tom,

Heh. Good one!

7:51 AM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

Winston,

Before you let selected commenters drive you over the edge, instead of replying to them, have you considered disemvowelling?

It's very satisfying.

10:21 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Heh heh...yeah, I used to think that that was kind of a cheap trick...censorship for those who can't admit they're censoring... But maybe I should reconsider...

10:53 AM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

Consider, it's not really censorship, since those who care to can actually go back and read the comment.

You're not erasing the comment, you're just saving everyone else from reading extraneous abuse unless they really want to.

1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To paraphrase Al Capone, we on the left could get farther with a smile and a gun than we have gotten get with a smile alone.

Civility, like a smile, is important, but it's way down the list of my values. I rank liberty, democracy, the rule of law, fairness, economic justice, accuracy, truth-telling, and so on above civility. Nonetheless, I value manners try to stay civil toward those who are civil to me.

Some on the left have seen the success of the right's quarter century of dominance of incivility and have tried to play catch-up. Most of them are powerless blog commenters who appear to have so much time to comment that they must still be in college. They'll grow up, most of them.

On the right, there are many commentators who draw a paycheck to incite the correspondingly immature wingnuts. Ann Coulter is just the beginning. There is no corresponding figure on the left.

I still think Stephen Colbert was funny and brave to speak truth to power, and I don't care if making Duhbya uncomfortable was rude. As Slappy the Squirrel says with her Bronx accent, "That's comedy." I'd prefer to see Duhbya in the dock being grilled (politely) on the way to Leavenworth, but in-your-face satire will have to do.

Personally, I think lefties like me need to worry more about the right's dominance of weaponry than its dominance of incivility. So maybe Capone really had something with his smile and a gun.

1:03 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Well, it's obvious that civility isn't one of the most important goods.

But when you start driving away everybody but the True Believers...well, that's when you're in trouble.

Instead of folks on the left whining and screaming at each other about who does and does not pass the Colbert litmus test they should be addressing the real problems we face. Like the criminally corrupt and incompetent administration...

6:20 PM  

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