Wednesday, October 15, 2008

The Debate

Schieffer brings up the negative campaigning issue.

McCain again makes his completely irrelevant appeal to the fact that Obama wouldn't do all the town hall meetings he wants, as if there were any way for this to justify his viciousness.

Also: he points to Lewis's criticism as if that were part of Obama's campaign. But an independent, objective third part--whose wisdom McCain himself has praised--criticizing McCain is not the same as Obama's campaign doing so. Obama has no obligation to repudiate Lewis's claim, and he is not responsible for Lewis's assertions.

Obama now raises the expressions of hatred at McCain's rallies. McCain spews some moronic bullshit, basically insinuating that Obama is attacking the patriotism of all McCain's supporters. Abject sophistry. What an a$hole. Disgustingly dishonest.

Ah, here comes Ayers and Acorn!

Good answer by Obama. McCain keeps spewing crap.

Time to roll out Charles Keating, sez me...

McCain keeps wandering all over the place...back to taxes now...WTF is this guy talking about???

Obama passed up the chance to rail on Palin. That was probably judicious. I couldn't have been so prudent.

Now McCain is lighting into Biden.
C'mon Obama, at least point out that Palin doesn't even have any views on foreign policy.

Man, McCain is one cranky SOB.

Does anybody know what McCain is talking about? He's jumping frantically from one lame-ass attack on Obama to the next. It's downright bizarre.

The fine is zero. Hah! Take that, McCranky. Small businesses exempt--righto! It's a good plan...far better than McCain's. This Obama should be able to wipe the floor with him on this.

Oy vey, Joe the plumber again...




Anonymous Anonymous said...


Your wrong. That was the best part. Some people work hard and then give jobs to other people. Thats the American Dream, really. I have a job but my boss pays me every Friday night. His wife and him work harder than I do and stay late and sometimes when I get my paycheck they don't get one and we all know. I respect them and they deserve to make a million dollars some day. I'm not jealous.

4:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama had an obligation to talk about Lewis calling McCain a George Wallace. You don't call people racist. Thats what was BS and leaders are supposed to stop the BS and Obama didn't, he just hid behind the BS and you know that's the truth. He isn't anything so stop pretending he is.

8:17 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Nope, you're wrong, A.

See, in an ideal world, all these issues would get addressed. But in the real world of actual facts, when there are so many more important issues than this, the Lewis thing is really fairly inconsequential.

Obama's initial response to Lewis's assertion was exactly right--McCain is no racist, but he IS ramping up the ambient level of hostility in the same way that Wallace did.

Furthermore, Obama has no obligation to denounce what someone unaffiliated with his campaign has said. McCain's got actual people at his rallies yelling "kill him." Now *that's* serious and important.

You gotta get off the Wallace thing. There's too much going on that's more important than that.

Furthermore, nobody's got anything against Joe making a million dollars. More power to him. Nothing in Obama's plan or general orientation is against Joe becoming a millionaire. But individuals and businesses making over a quarter of a million bucks/year are going to have to go back to paying their pre-Bush tax levels--i.e. paying their fair share. Sorry--the free ride is over.

8:29 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...


In order to make this clear, I'd like to sum up the points made thus far. Your arguments against Obama will be ennumerated and provided below along with the information that has been given to refute the claims.

1) Obama "isn't anything" because he didn't rebuke claims that McCain is a racist.

It has been pointed out that, not only is Obama not responsible for the actions of politicians not affiliated with his campaign, but that Obama did, in fact, rebuke these claims, saying that McCain is not a racist, the comparison was incorrect, but correctly noting that there are large amounts of apparent irrational and dangerous behavior on behalf of the McCain campaign despite the fact that he, himself, is not racist.

2) Obama's tax plan prevents some people from purchasing small businesses making over $250,000, and they deserve these businesses.

Obama's plan is designed to help people like Joe when they need the help. When Joe is at a point in his life where he can purchase a $250,000 business, he needs no help from the government. People invariably argue things like "But Joe worked his whole life to purchase that business!"

Sadly, people can't have everything they want, all the time. Joe has enough money to contemplate buying a $250,000 a year business, but just can't squeak it out under a reasonable tax plan. While it would be great if no one had to pay taxes, and therefore Joe didn't have to pay his fair share of them, and was thereby able to purchase the business, that's not how it can remain. Somehow, I think he'll manage to survive.

On the other hand, some families don't have enough money to purchase food. McCain's tax plan offers little to no help for these families. If you don't believe that, I will gladly provide a link to a comparative chart. Those are the people Obama's designing his plan to help, not poor Joe, who will just have to find some other use for his money than purchasing a huge business.

Does that help you to understand why we believe your positions are incorrect?

9:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Joe the Plumber" and his talk about taxes as "punishment" are sheer nonesense. This guy is supposed to be "worried" about buying a business that makes $250K. That's a nice worry to have.

I ran a few scenarios using Joe the Plumber's numbers. If Joe makes $250k he still pays less than McCain's plan. If Joe makes $300K he pays $1500 more in taxes than he does now. Somehow I think an actual Joe making $300K will not have a problem with that. I mean c'mon, @ $300K he's bringing in $25K a month! I think he'll be okay handling the extra $1500.

I teach and my wife is an accountant. We have one child. Our adjusted gross income is around $150,000. We will be paying about $1,600 LESS under Obama's tax plan and only $100 under McCain's.

Here's the actual Tax Calculator to find out how much more or less you'll pay in taxes.

8:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So as long as you get your tax cut you don't care about punishing Joe with taxes. Thats nice, tax somebody else.

Wrong. Obama should say something and no McCain isn't like George Wallace in any way ok? What lies. You say anything like Obama doens't need to say anything. Yes he does. And the news said nobody at McCain speeches said to kill Obama. Another lie

10:57 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

"So as long as you get your tax cut you don't care about punishing Joe with taxes. Thats nice, tax somebody else."

No one said that, Anonymous. Everyone should pay taxes, and it is not a "punishment" to raise Joe's taxes back to the level at which they existed before Bush's presidency. It is simply reinstating a reasonable requirement on the wealthy that was lost in this presidency.

Further, you again assert that "Obama should say something and no McCain isn't like George Wallace". Not only do you refuse to address the claim that Obama's campaign is not responsible for statements made by those not affiliated with the campaign, but you also refuse to acknowledge that Obama did, in fact, say something, and that no one here thinks McCain is in any way comparable so far as racism is concerned to George Wallace.

Please read what we have said and give some consideration to it. You appear to not have read what we posted, but have merely reposted your previous claims despite the responses to them.

Regarding the recent report about the Secret Service being unable to corroborate the "Kill him" remark, that does do some damage to the story but it does not disprove it. Further, the story is but one of a long line of very public, very obvious evidence that the McCain campaign has engaged in extremely dishonest character assassination which has most certainly contributed to over-the-top mentalities regarding Obama. One of the myriad examples that could be cited is the ad that was run by the campaign alleging that Obama desires to teach comprehensive sex education to kindergarteners.

It is this sort of appallingly dishonest and outrageous attempts at painting Obama as some sort of demonic figure that leads to the believability of the claim made about the McCain rally and what was said there.

4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama DOES have a responsibility when an important man calls McCain like a racist, George Wallace. Thats what presidents are supposed to do. Why don't you just call him Hitler. Dont tell me but he IS ramping up the ambient level of hostility in the same way that Wallace did. You don't compare people to George Wallace the racist or Hitler. Everybody knows that's crap. The Hitler card they call it. The George Wallace racist card.

Here's the actual Tax Calculator to find out how much more or less you'll pay in taxes. so dont tell me somebody isnt telling me to vote for Obama because I'll have less taxes. God you think people are stupid except you. I can read and I know crap when I see it. Vote for Obama if you want but don't write crap.

10:34 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...


Did you read anything we've written?

I've told you again and again the same thing and you keep posting as though you haven't read it or you have failed to understand it.

I will not repeat myself again, as repetition seems to have no effect, but as for your new claims in this post:

Countering claims made by politicians unaffiliated with one's campaign is not a responsibility of a candidate. Further, it is not the responsibility of a president to counter every wrong statement made by every "important man" out there. That is in no way part of a president's job, actually.

Further, comparisons to Hitler or George Wallace are not outright banned by some rule or regulation. If the comparison is warranted, it is acceptable to make. Regardless, it is clear that the comparison is likely not warranted in this situation, and this has been noted by Obama and the man who made the comment initially.

Again, you fail to note that Obama DID point out that this was an incorrect comparison.

Again, you fail to note that this is a relatively unimportant issue.

Again, you fail to demonstrate an understanding of the conversation that has occurred thus far, simply reposting old information as though it has not been covered and new insults.

I don't know what to do. I'm sorry I can't seem to help you. Either you are not interested in actual discussion, or you do not know how to engage in it. In either scenario, this seems unproductive at best.

12:48 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Go away, Anonymous. You're not making any sense. You just keep repeating the same idiotic points over and over again. You won't listen to what anybody else has to say, so just go away. You're not welcome here.

9:48 AM  

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