Wednesday, June 22, 2005

The First Amendment vs. the Flag-Burning Amendment

It should come as no surprise that this July 4th the Republicans will launch another attack on the freedom of expression. Call and write and e-mail your Senators, folks. Those boys didn't die at Valley Forge and Iwo Jima so that we could sit on our asses and let a bunch of nuts slowly erode our rights as free people.

39 Comments:

Blogger Azael said...

What's this "slowly".

WRT flag burning, perhaps tvd can give a talk on the difference between getting upset over this symbolic act is any different than Muslims getting upset over desecration of the Koran.

8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents." --Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY)

Azael, here is something I wrote about what you said. (Shameless self-promotion, sorry WS.)

9:31 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Very nicely said.

11:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ten years ago D's were assaulting our freedom via hate-speech bans. Now R's are assaulting our freedom via flag-burning bans.

When partisans ask me why I am politically independent, I just shake my head.

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Although, it's only fair to point out that the flag-burning ban is meaningless political grandstanding, not a real threat to anyone's freedom. If the ban actually passes, it will immediately (and rightfully) be struck down by the courts. Only one person will actually suffer because of this thing, and that will be the guy who volunteers to make a case out of this.

9:49 AM  
Blogger Azael said...

Wow. First of all, it's a constitutional amendment, not a law - big difference. The main one being the courts won't have jack to say or do about it. Second, comparing the flag burning amendment to some nebulous attempt at hate speech is rather ridiculous. I'm certainly not aware of any national level democratic attempt at limiting speech - even "hate" speech. Please inform me (with links, please) if I am hopelessly ignorant on this topic. Nor am I aware of any state or local level actions regarding "hate" speach restrictions.

Please look at the record of the ACLU in this regard. I think you'll find that this stereotypical liberal organization has actually made a lot of enemies by protecting the free speach rights of some pretty dispicable organizaitons.

Perhaps you are independent only because you are unaware of the actual reality out there?

12:50 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Ye gods. I forgot to spell check. My most sincere apologies.

12:51 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

The Dems didn't promote speech codes, to their credit.

On the other hand, there is a point in there--as I've said before, I think that liberals helped stoke the flames of the recent conservative revolution by failing to oppose the radical left's promotion of speech codes on college campuses. Many good people got driven to the right by that insanity.

Of course failing to oppose some bad thing with sufficient fervor is not as bad as actively promoting another bad thing--but it's worth keeping in mind.

And don't worry about the self-linking, Montag. When something's relevant and well-said, it ain't self-promotion, IMHO.

1:02 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Well, I suppose. I must have missed the whole campus speech code thing, not being in academia. I do remember the whole PC thing, but it seems that this was just as much a push from the right. I think it is just the simple fact that anyone in power tries to warp language their particular way. Just look at what the Christian right is doing now with text books.

And in the grand scheme of things, doesn't it seem rather silly to get "pushed to the right" because of a movement that tries to get people to respect each other and recognize diversity? I mean, I know people react badly to this stuff. But this is somehow worse (or equivalent) to the Jihad on evolution, the war on metaphor or the Christian right PC textbook crusade?

Equivalence seems hard to rectify between the two movements. One is annoying. The other is literally dangerous to our education.

2:11 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I already agreed with Philosoraptor on this subject in a previous post, Az. And on another occasion, I believe he wasn't thrilled with the idea of giving special protection to any objects, including Qur'ans.

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wait a minute, you mean the R's are pushing for a *constitutional amendment* to ban flag-burning? That's awesome. I literally, truly, un-ironically feel a lot better about it now.

Because we all know damned well that no such amendment will ever get passed. Not a chance in hell. I will sleep peacefully tonight.

4:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Azael wrote, "doesn't it seem rather silly to get "pushed to the right" because of a movement that tries to get people to respect each other and recognize diversity?"

The movement that you refer to was an attempt to censor speech. That movement did indeed push me to the right, because I believe that freedom of speech is the foundation of all other freedoms. If you can't say what you think, nothing else matters.

I will fight to the ends of the earth for Fred Phelps' right to say "God hates fags," just as I will fight for Chris' and Protagoras' rights to say "Bush=Hitler" (see the comments to "Anti-Clinton Madness" in this very blog). This freedom is too important to dink with. If the kooks, bigots, and blinkered partisans can't speak, then none of us are safe.

5:09 PM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

I don't understand why The Right is up in arms about flag burning, when they seem to be the group least likely to follow existing flag regulations. If those pushing a flag burning amendment were also up in arms about the current misuse of the flag I'd be less likely to think them hypocrites.

Rules for flying the flag.
Section 8d: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."
Section 8i: "The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever."

I'm very attached to the flag--I think it is an important American icon, representing our beliefs and values. Which is why I think that when Americans are pushed so far they no longer feel as if their country represents them, they feel that their country has taken actions that go against their deeply held beliefs, they should have the right to make such a dramatic statment as burning the flag.

6:50 PM  
Blogger Devotee said...

I have a recommendation for addressing this matter with conservative members of Congress. Tell them that if they vote for the amendment, they're promoting idolatry. The amendment allows congress to "prohibit the physical desecration" of the flag, and desecration means "to abuse the sacredness of." By voting for the amendment, they're imputing a holy quality to the flag that should be inimical to any reading of the Ten Commandments that they (supposedly) so fervently cleave to.

12:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brava, michelle k. I wholeheartedly second your comment.

so sez The Duke of Prunes

1:18 PM  
Blogger Azael said...

Yes, it's an amendment to the constitution. It's passed the house - and has a zillion times before - but this is the first time it is predicted to get out of the Senate. Maybe it won't. But predicting failure isn't the safe bet now.

As to your other points, Anonymous, regarding free speech and liberals....

What a pussy. I mean, really. Were there actual laws involved, or were you just intimidated by a few left wing radicals? Man, what a wimp :)

Seriously, though. As far as I can tell, anyone - through virtue of free speech - can try to badger you into doing anything - you're not trying to limit their free speech now, are you? But unless they actually tried to get - you know - actual laws passed, I'd say you're just a reactionary who's just super sensitive himself... I mean, couldn't you just ignore these twits? I do it all the time with right wing wackos - well, unless they start passing actual laws n' stuff.

Sorry, but this is probably the most pathetic tale of moving to the right I've heard in quite a while. I mean, really.... Giving power to people like this is rather wimpy.

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