tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post8572131568297435275..comments2024-03-26T12:23:29.784-04:00Comments on Philosoraptor: Winston Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-26097045558799145392007-11-08T13:36:00.000-05:002007-11-08T13:36:00.000-05:00It's also like Turkey [putatively the Muslim world...It's also like Turkey [putatively the Muslim world's best-functioning democracy], it seems, where the military is the best-functioning part of the society, and seems to have a regular role in the disposition and maintenance of governments. <BR/><BR/>Presidents come and go, but the military is the rock.<BR/><BR/>We in the West, with our one size fits all worldview, don't appreciate such things.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-5139010233600254072007-11-08T09:21:00.000-05:002007-11-08T09:21:00.000-05:00Actually, though Bouteflika nominally dissipated t...Actually, though Bouteflika nominally dissipated the FIS, he allowed its members to filter into other parties, and released from custody the two main ringleaders of the violent resistance.<BR/><BR/>All of this was after negotiations, mostly beginning in 2002. <BR/><BR/>On Pakistan, it's anybody's guess. It's hard to tell if the constitution means anything after about 1977 when dictators startedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-15471005885958009572007-11-08T01:13:00.000-05:002007-11-08T01:13:00.000-05:00I can't vouch for this, since it comes from Nation...I can't vouch for this, since it comes from National Review, but it sounds about right, and consistent with what would be the "other side" of your posted NYT article:<BR/><BR/>If you think that U.S. support for Musharraf "is unlikely to waver now, as some of the alternatives to his rule are too dangerous to comprehend" then you can understand that the potential ruling of the Supreme Court Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-83473261834162397262007-11-08T00:43:00.000-05:002007-11-08T00:43:00.000-05:00The [ruling] National Liberation Front (FLN) won 1...<I>The [ruling] National Liberation Front (FLN) won 136 seats, the pro-business Rally for National Democracy (RND) won 61 seats, and the moderate Islamist Movement for Society (MSP) and Peace won 52 in Thursday's poll.</I><BR/><BR/>See, Algeria simply outlawed the Islamist parties. <BR/><BR/>I admit I'm a bit behind on Pakistan as to who's the good guys. But if the Pakistani left is anything Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-76247327907508085962007-11-07T23:12:00.000-05:002007-11-07T23:12:00.000-05:00Well I don't know how respectful the current gover...Well I don't know how respectful the current government is of civil and political rights, but they did hold open elections recently which though marred by a large protest vote, were deemed to be fair. That is far more democratic than calling off the elections like they did in the 90s:<BR/><BR/>http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1760801320070518?feedType=RSS&pageNumber=1<BR/><BR/>As Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-39592562574780600182007-11-07T22:43:00.000-05:002007-11-07T22:43:00.000-05:00They're still suppressing them, aren't they? To t...They're still suppressing them, aren't they? To the relief of the civilized world?<BR/><BR/>The problem with Pakistan might not be a [next] democratic government, but that government's inability to fight off the crazies.<BR/><BR/>Think Weimar.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-67748079169614868622007-11-07T21:24:00.000-05:002007-11-07T21:24:00.000-05:00Well, from what I recall her saying at OW, Hilzoy ...Well, from what I recall her saying at OW, Hilzoy feels a greater responsibility for what the US does because it's ostensibly being done in our name, besides the point about us having some leverage over policy here.<BR/><BR/>Re Pakistan, on one level I'm nervous too about it becoming fully democratic, but I don't feel I (or we) have any right to determine how they govern themselves. And from a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-88056291520513446082007-11-07T20:54:00.000-05:002007-11-07T20:54:00.000-05:00Ah, Hilzoy. She visited here once when I was bagg...Ah, Hilzoy. She visited here once when I was bagging on her for her philosophy of only bagging on the Bush administration because that's all she had the power to change. I think that's a drag, and sometimes you might even have to support the morally imperfect in the greater scheme of things.<BR/><BR/>Currently, I see she thinks that a fully democratic Pakistan would be a-OK. I hope she's rightTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-55928876278034320822007-11-07T19:37:00.000-05:002007-11-07T19:37:00.000-05:00Tom,I basically agree with most of what you just s...Tom,<BR/><BR/>I basically agree with most of what you just said, but as much as I love Winston, I do think OW also has someone of his stature in Hilzoy, who is defintely left of center, but extremely bright, and fair.<BR/><BR/>And I'm certainly not saying you're a bad guy, despite having some annoying debating tics here at Philosoraptor, but I'll agree to disagree with you here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-40231563959148884352007-11-07T16:45:00.000-05:002007-11-07T16:45:00.000-05:00Trying to get rid of me? Hah. Then where would y...Trying to get rid of me? Hah. Then where would you be? You'd have nobody to hound.<BR/><BR/>Obsidian Wings seems to be doing fine without me, and I'm not attracted to fora with dozens of commenters. Intelligent conversation is difficult enough here in this din, where I write a few paragraphs to open a topic and seldom get to finish after answering all the attacks on my personhood.<BR/><BR/>Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-10672309426128664462007-11-07T15:49:00.000-05:002007-11-07T15:49:00.000-05:00Tom,I've suggested it before, apparently to no ava...Tom,<BR/><BR/>I've suggested it before, apparently to no avail, but if you really want to debate in an ideologically diverse forum, go to Obsidian Wings and see how you do.<BR/><BR/>It just so happens that there's a thread relevant to this dispute now:<BR/><BR/>http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2007/11/dont-be-a-playa.html#commentsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-37068201351292106782007-11-07T14:59:00.000-05:002007-11-07T14:59:00.000-05:00Again, I'm not talking about the parties. There's...Again, I'm not talking about the parties. There's leftism, there's conservatism, and then there's the mushy middle, which might even be called liberalism, and which Bush tried to capture with "compassionate conservatism."<BR/><BR/>Leftism is the least viable of the three. As my blogbrother Ben Zycher writes today:<BR/><BR/>"The voters in Oregon rejected a ballot measure to increase tobacco Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-13834743941752619512007-11-07T11:28:00.000-05:002007-11-07T11:28:00.000-05:00Except that Leftism DOESN'T hold the more extreme ...Except that Leftism DOESN'T hold the more extreme positions, as the thirty or so polls in the MM piece illustrated. Only in the fevered mind of right-wingers, where the fifty yard line is moved twenty to thirty yards to the right, does the left (at least any important swath of it in American politics) hold the more extreme positions.<BR/><BR/>And if, as you posit, the seminal difference between Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-24292734178825182902007-11-07T01:16:00.000-05:002007-11-07T01:16:00.000-05:00But I wasn't talking about the parties, which make...But I wasn't talking about the parties, which makes all your yelling at me all the more confusing. I didn't mention the parties at all, except in my illustrations, none of which were designed to argue any actual point, only to point out Media Matters' disingenuousness. Look it up.<BR/><BR/>I explicitly wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Leftists love collectivist solutions, conservatism hates leftism (not Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-21429111682014765602007-11-06T22:26:00.000-05:002007-11-06T22:26:00.000-05:00Well, that's mighty intellectually honest of you t...Well, that's mighty intellectually honest of you to attribute to the left ONE position by ONE governor as representative of its position on immigration. And as I mentioned, I really don't give a shit what people think of illegal immigrants. I'm sure they think all kinds of things. The important point is what people think policy should be. There is no real left-right divide on illegal Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-8283432997686335382007-11-06T17:23:00.000-05:002007-11-06T17:23:00.000-05:00Oh, please. You swatted nothing.Before criticizin...Oh, please. You swatted nothing.<BR/><BR/><I>Before criticizing the methodology and question content of a poll</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, I just questioned Media Matters' honesty. They omitted "illegal" and propped up a poll that said immigration is good for the country. I showed one that properly added "illegal" and presto, the majority says it hurts the country.<BR/><BR/>And amazingly, you keep Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-18978659950337292922007-11-06T16:36:00.000-05:002007-11-06T16:36:00.000-05:00And here's another of the Tom Van Dyke strawmen in...And here's another of the Tom Van Dyke strawmen in action:<BR/><BR/>Polls showing strong public support for "making laws covering the sale of firearms more strict", "enforcing existing laws more strictly", "the government doing more about restricting the kinds of guns people can buy", "continuing the assault weapons ban", and "the government making it more difficult to buy a gun than it is now" Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-77957947645435111642007-11-06T16:21:00.000-05:002007-11-06T16:21:00.000-05:00Nonsense. In every case except abortion, I showed...Nonsense. In every case except abortion, I showed how you failed to look at the data, the questions asked, answers given (as well as whether it was open-ended), and then attempted to steer the discussion toward some kind of heavaenly ideal of a poll that captures every possible nuance of every single issue. <BR/><BR/>And remarkably enough, the one poll from Foreign Affairs actually offered a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-88340063556797710322007-11-06T15:50:00.000-05:002007-11-06T15:50:00.000-05:00Except for the military spending [a mere plurality...Except for the military spending [a mere plurality] and the taxes on the rich [which I conceded] not a single claim stood up conclusively and very many took it in the shorts.<BR/><BR/>Still, you're back with the snark ("cherished faith-based beliefs"). Unreal. The only belief I stated was that the country is kinda 50-50, an unremarkable assertion.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-51113188236065079772007-11-06T14:10:00.000-05:002007-11-06T14:10:00.000-05:00Actually, um no, what you did was obviously fail t...Actually, um no, what you did was obviously fail to read the fine print about the polls when the results contradicted your cherished faith-based beliefs about the US electorate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-19931718522630723142007-11-06T13:48:00.000-05:002007-11-06T13:48:00.000-05:00Republicans are people, too. Sort of.I find your ...Republicans are people, too. Sort of.<BR/><BR/>I find your #1 pretty ironic, since that's SOP against me around here. Neither did I attack Media Matters at first---I wanted to see if you could detect any sophistries in what I found to be a remarkably didhonest essay.<BR/><BR/>When you could (or would) not, and only after some urging, did I take the time to give you chapter and verse, as a Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-2953399489776238622007-11-05T11:32:00.000-05:002007-11-05T11:32:00.000-05:001. The point about Media Matters is that you felt ...1. The point about Media Matters is that you felt inclined to beat up on them, when all they were doing were presenting multiple poll results which support the premise that the US is much more liberal than the media portray it as. Feel free to adduce sufficient evidence to counter this. Sidney Hook: "When debating your opponent, first attack his argument before you attack him". <BR/><BR/>2. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-68819760980340618232007-11-04T15:32:00.000-05:002007-11-04T15:32:00.000-05:00Well, thank you for the last. Let's start over, s...Well, thank you for the last. Let's start over, shall we? I think you're a good debater, and enjoy our exchanges when they're civil.<BR/><BR/>"Uh-uh, pal" was directed at Media Matters, not you. It did sound harsh.<BR/><BR/><I>"Do you favor letting states proven to be supporters of terrorism develop and proliferate nuclear weapons, or do you favor doing nothing and hoping for the best?"<BR/><Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-7615735300753342792007-11-04T12:03:00.000-05:002007-11-04T12:03:00.000-05:00P.S. You do have a good point about the abortion i...P.S. You do have a good point about the abortion issue. Even though the pro-choice position wins a plurality of all the positions, Americans are of many minds about how available they think it should be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-24440002888173669572007-11-04T12:01:00.000-05:002007-11-04T12:01:00.000-05:00Yeah, the source you cited used wording to skew fo...Yeah, the source you cited used wording to skew for the results they and you wished for. So the point is to ask the questions either open-endedly, or in the least leading manner possible. <BR/><BR/>What if, on the military expenditure question, they instead asked: "As you know, the United States spends one in two discretionary federal dollars on the military and spends more than the next thirty Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com