tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post5036607861009345359..comments2024-03-26T12:23:29.784-04:00Comments on Philosoraptor: Winston Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-76977569931070629672007-11-04T18:51:00.000-05:002007-11-04T18:51:00.000-05:00Tom,1. It IS important to recognize, however, that...Tom,<BR/><BR/>1. It IS important to recognize, however, that this not "a semantic issue." So, while many disputes have a semantic aspect, or can be translated into issues about semantics, that does not make them "semantic issues" in the ordinary use of that term. So: not a semantic dispute.<BR/><BR/>2. As for the "agreement on the larger point"--I don't think there's ever been any disagreement Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-73318506092129052162007-11-04T17:14:00.000-05:002007-11-04T17:14:00.000-05:00In order to assess whether or not the administrati...In order to assess whether or not the administration has engaged in illegal activity, we would need to clarify whether waterboarding is torture.<BR/><BR/>Another possible reason why waterboarding is no longer used is that the terrorists know about it now and can prepare to resist against it. If it had never become general knowledge that the US used waterboarding, the administration still may be Joe the Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11309208261956958264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-34815014205734830532007-11-04T15:11:00.000-05:002007-11-04T15:11:00.000-05:00Now, Tom could have a point since, I take it, 'wat...<I>Now, Tom could have a point since, I take it, 'waterboarding' is a semi-technical term or a "term of art."<BR/><BR/>The question is not best construed as a semantic question, but it has a semantic aspect, and could be translated into a primarily semantic question without loss.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Thank you, Winston. As long as I'm cleared of the "red herring" charge, which offends me, I'm fine Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-33238166776495440212007-11-04T13:23:00.000-05:002007-11-04T13:23:00.000-05:00Why is this not about semantics?The question at ha...Why is this not about semantics?<BR/><BR/>The question at hand:<BR/>Do acts of waterboarding constitute a sub-class of the class of acts of torture?<BR/><BR/>The question re-conceived as a semantic question:<BR/>Does the term 'waterboarding' mean something like "a kind of torture"?<BR/><BR/>We're really interested in the acts, not the words. Acts of waterboarding are acts of torture.<BR/><BR/>NowWinston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-44876264239011484262007-11-04T11:23:00.000-05:002007-11-04T11:23:00.000-05:00I think you're right to want to make distinctions ...I think you're right to want to make distinctions about different kinds of actions, Tom. Not all of them can be easily or neatly categorized under the term 'torture.' Still as WS said above, we're not talking about the correct definition of torture, really, so it's not all semantics as you are saying. Instead we're trying to figure out which kinds of actions are morally justified. The term 'Joe the Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11309208261956958264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-73548324197251822532007-11-04T01:31:00.000-04:002007-11-04T01:31:00.000-04:00I'm not following you. Are you saying that tortur...I'm not following you. Are you saying that torture is effective in the "ticking bomb" scenario but not otherwise?<BR/><BR/>If so, that's interesting, altho I can't find my way clear to agree.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As for semantics, I find the term "torture" is unhelpful here. For one thing, waterboarding seems to take in a broad swath. The cellophane thing is waterboarding, but ducking someone's head Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-2137117369398111672007-11-03T23:42:00.000-04:002007-11-03T23:42:00.000-04:00I still don't know why you think this is "semantic...I still don't know why you think this is "semantics", Tom. Maybe you could explain that better. WS seemed to clearly explain why it doesn't appear to merely be semantics.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, for clarification:<BR/><BR/>Torture doesn't work in reality because you take a person that you guess has information you want, beat the shit out of him and make him tell you something - anything - that willThe Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-32289799201217745762007-11-03T21:58:00.000-04:002007-11-03T21:58:00.000-04:00In my opinion, it is semantics. But I don't know ...In my opinion, it is semantics. But I don't know of any argument that would change anyone's mind, so I didn't try. [I concede that arguing it isn't torture is also semantics.] <BR/><BR/>And so, in order to initiate discussion on the larger issue instead of letting this post lie here with zero comments---as many comments sections do---I stipulated waterboarding is torture, a TVD-alanche ensuedTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-53010617695779886152007-11-03T20:28:00.000-04:002007-11-03T20:28:00.000-04:00I'm apparently missing something here...Tom says: ...I'm apparently missing something here...<BR/><BR/>Tom says: it's a semantic issue.<BR/><BR/>I point out that it isn't.<BR/><BR/>Tom says it's about whether it's effective.<BR/><BR/>DA and others point out that it's pretty much known not to be.<BR/><BR/>Tom says: the real issue is: would you risk the lives of your family out of "squeamishness"<BR/><BR/>rotgut responds as I would: yes. That's the Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-7273692798304593642007-11-03T17:07:00.000-04:002007-11-03T17:07:00.000-04:00Incarcerating all poor, young black men. I think i...<I>Incarcerating all poor, young black men. I think it's impermissible even if tomorrow I'm murdered by one. </I><BR/><BR/>Do you consider this an honest rebuttal? It injects the innocence of 99% of those involved and to my mind begs the question. But I'll answer---no, I don't favor torturing 100 profiled people even if there were a mathematical near-certainty of catching one terrorist.<BR/><BRTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-76142376542552864042007-11-03T16:18:00.000-04:002007-11-03T16:18:00.000-04:00Okay, outside of true ticking time bomb cases, whe...Okay, outside of true ticking time bomb cases, where the threat is imminent and we *know* the suspect can stop it, I think torture is impermissible, even if it costs me or my loved ones our lives. <BR/><BR/>Other things I object to:<BR/><BR/>Incarcerating all poor, young black men. I think it's impermissible even if tomorrow I'm murdered by one. <BR/><BR/>Executing all criminals. I think it'sAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-31259356061523498902007-11-03T15:45:00.000-04:002007-11-03T15:45:00.000-04:00Don't invert the question, O Hostile to Tyranny On...Don't invert the question, O Hostile to Tyranny One. That's the problem here.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-56407777434092424712007-11-03T15:18:00.000-04:002007-11-03T15:18:00.000-04:00Legate Van Dyke, I would invert the question and a...Legate Van Dyke, I would invert the question and ask if one tortured in order to save ones' children, would one then be willing to discuss with said children what one has done to save their lives?<BR/><BR/>As for pragmatism, you began by saying:<BR/><BR/><A>However, if torture works</A><BR/><BR/>when all the evidence is that is doesn't, so you brought up a concern that may be termed 'pragmatic', Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-78920141341980746052007-11-03T14:47:00.000-04:002007-11-03T14:47:00.000-04:00Innocence and ineffectiveness are pragmatic side i...Innocence and ineffectiveness are pragmatic side issues. I'm not the one making broad moral pronouncements here. If folks are going to respond to my original post, please respond to it. I'm talking sweeping principle, not thises and thats.<BR/><BR/>I would, in fairness, compare this to an issue on the right---embryonic stem cell research. One may say that adult cell research is far more Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-36793691805934924722007-11-03T14:33:00.000-04:002007-11-03T14:33:00.000-04:00From the Wikipedia:The use of torture has been cri...From the Wikipedia:<BR/><BR/>The use of torture has been criticized not only on humanitarian and moral grounds, but on the grounds that <B>evidence extracted by torture can be unreliable</B> and that <A>the use of torture corrupts institutions which tolerate it</A>.<BR/><BR/>It is particularly dangerous to military organizations. The deliberate infliction of pain on a helpless person is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-20684280672434523202007-11-03T13:38:00.000-04:002007-11-03T13:38:00.000-04:00Tom, you are sounding like a PoMo litcritter here ...Tom, you are sounding like a PoMo litcritter here or something...<BR/><BR/>(1) What is and is not torture is not a matter of aesthetics. It is a matter of morality.<BR/><BR/>(2) It is not a matter of semantics, either, if you mean what people normally mean by that claim. It's no more semantic than the question 'is a dog a mammal?' is semantic. I mean, the question is expressed in words...but thatWinston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-49722177959331694712007-11-03T12:20:00.000-04:002007-11-03T12:20:00.000-04:00Newspeak is here, and Tom speaks it even if he has...Newspeak is here, and Tom speaks it even if he hasn't managed to reduce his vocabulary yet.lovable liberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616294696912710046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-21619592724121164222007-11-03T09:31:00.000-04:002007-11-03T09:31:00.000-04:00This is a good idea:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/a...This is a good idea:<BR/><BR/>http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/057806.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-7298492595792238192007-11-02T23:34:00.000-04:002007-11-02T23:34:00.000-04:00BTW, Tom, I'll say it: torture is always wrong. Go...<I>BTW, Tom, I'll say it: torture is always wrong. Go ahead and come up with whatever absurd situation you'd like. Better yet, answer me this: would you torture your wife to save your child?</I><BR/><BR/>Jawohl!Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-4775865223859243472007-11-02T21:55:00.000-04:002007-11-02T21:55:00.000-04:00This is why Mukasey shouldn't be confirmed, and it...This is why Mukasey shouldn't be confirmed, and it unfortunately exposes Tom's latest hero, Jack Goldsmith:<BR/><BR/>http://velvelonnationalaffairs.blogspot.com/2007/10/october-12-2007-re-although.html<BR/><BR/>A choice passage:<BR/><BR/>"Goldsmith left the government and joined Harvard at a time when two generally separate streams of events were occurring and, because of Goldsmith, were joined Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-80874349550643394382007-11-02T16:57:00.000-04:002007-11-02T16:57:00.000-04:00The what is-and-isn’t torture go-round seems to le...The what is-and-isn’t torture go-round seems to lead nowhere, and becomes a matter of esthetics or semantics. So, I’ll just stipulate “torture” for the sake of moving on.<BR/><BR/>The easy way out of the moral dilemma for many people these days is simply to assert that “torture doesn’t work.” Voilà, dilemma erased.<BR/><BR/>However, if torture works, and lives are saved as a result, it seems to Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com