tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post4415891704351932851..comments2024-03-26T12:23:29.784-04:00Comments on Philosoraptor: Winston Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-30701474855543269112007-09-05T16:29:00.000-04:002007-09-05T16:29:00.000-04:00If Craig had come out for sodomy laws or attacked ...If Craig had come out for sodomy laws or attacked gays as human beings, you might have a point. But his votes on public policy don't justify newspapers stalking and "investigating" his private life.<BR/><BR/>You disagree. That's fine. You're on record for what many, not just me, find as indefensible. Our work is done here.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-72472605604221660272007-09-04T10:44:00.000-04:002007-09-04T10:44:00.000-04:00Sorry, TVD, but my opposition is to hypocracy, not...Sorry, TVD, but my opposition is to hypocracy, not the simplistic equation you present here that someone votes against gay marriage =anti-gay.<BR/><BR/>You've danced and refused to acknowledge the hypocracy side of things, and I'm not interested in going to your site if you use the same sophistry that you employ here on a regular basis.<BR/><BR/><I>And DA, if you're advocating a scorched earth Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-71267029631422113442007-09-04T01:11:00.000-04:002007-09-04T01:11:00.000-04:00I posted the results of this inquiry over at my gr...I posted the results of this inquiry over at my groupblog. I was looking for a counterargument that I could present in fairness and sympathetically.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, there was none, so as a courtesy, I left the heinous and hateful and unmerciful unnamed.<BR/><BR/>If anyone has a problem with my conclusions, they are, as always, invited to try their luck away from their home field.<BR/><BRTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-6600469660968953772007-09-03T22:57:00.000-04:002007-09-03T22:57:00.000-04:00TVD:#1Yes. My reasoning stems from my Latin quote...TVD:<BR/><BR/>#1<BR/><BR/>Yes. My reasoning stems from my Latin quote <I>supra</I>.<BR/><BR/>#2:<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't object to the Idaho Statesman or another media outlet investigating rumors like those spread by Ann Coulter, Dick Morris, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-7251986298315865952007-09-03T19:22:00.000-04:002007-09-03T19:22:00.000-04:00I support the finding and exposing of hypocrites i...<I>I support the finding and exposing of hypocrites in the Congress, whether they be Republican, Democrat, etc.</I><BR/><BR/>Just to be nice and sparkling clear, does this mean that you support outing anyone who opposes gay marriage? And that journalists should investigate rumors to that effect, as the Statesman did?Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-55631855937418357572007-09-03T07:09:00.000-04:002007-09-03T07:09:00.000-04:00I support the finding and exposing of hypocrites i...I support the finding and exposing of hypocrites in the Congress, whether they be Republican, Democrat, etc.<BR/><BR/>It should be noted that the Idaho Statesman only ran the story after the story of Craigs' guilty plea became public, which they treated as confirming evidence that they were on the right track in their investigation, as Craigs' denial in May turned into that old Groucho Marx line,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-88987298878824630802007-09-03T00:31:00.000-04:002007-09-03T00:31:00.000-04:00TVD, Sen. Craig was directly involved in making pu...<I>TVD, Sen. Craig was directly involved in making public policy that related in part to purely private behavior that is/was none of anyone's business? when he voted against gay marriage.</I><BR/><BR/>Some of the Democratic presidential candidates don't support gay marriage. In fact, at least one of them has been the subject of, um rumors.<BR/><BR/>What do you propose we do with them? Has the Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-28439427678310101852007-09-02T18:10:00.000-04:002007-09-02T18:10:00.000-04:00TVD, Sen. Craig was directly involved in making pu...TVD, Sen. Craig was directly involved in making public policy that related in part to <B>purely private behavior that is/was none of anyone's business?</B> when he voted against gay marriage.<BR/><BR/>He was allied with such folks as the IVA, who, however you want to minimize them, weren't gay-friendly by any means, and wouldn't have supported Craig if the truth were known about his private life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-11552915585549887922007-09-02T15:40:00.000-04:002007-09-02T15:40:00.000-04:00No. Do you disagree that Rogers is an "odious pre...No. Do you disagree that Rogers is an "odious presence" for violating Craig's privacy based on purely private behavior that was none of anyone's business?<BR/><BR/>Do you think Craig shouldn't have resigned after his arrest came out?<BR/><BR/>These are two separate questions, not one. However, I am interested in your answers.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-941040749789197572007-09-02T09:29:00.000-04:002007-09-02T09:29:00.000-04:00Unfortunately for you, TVD, Glenn didn't do what D...Unfortunately for you, TVD, Glenn didn't do what Dean and you said he did. Here's the money quote:<BR/><BR/><B>I would honestly pay money to watch someone try to reconcile those two positions. Last October, Barnett depicted Rogers as an "odious presence" for violating Craig's privacy based on purely private behavior that was none of anyone's business. Today, the same Barnett demands that Craig Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-58677506053906456212007-09-01T17:57:00.000-04:002007-09-01T17:57:00.000-04:00I’m an Idahoan, and we’ve known for years that Sen...<I>I’m an Idahoan, and we’ve known for years that Senator Craig is gay. Farmers know it, business men and women know it; everyone knows it, he’s known as “Idaho’s gay Senator.”</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly. Still, they reelected him. (The author's use of "ultra - conservative" and "moral superiority" are the usual mindless left-wing boilerplate. Craig never got his vote we can be sure, and not becauseTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-75423806728693064612007-09-01T17:43:00.000-04:002007-09-01T17:43:00.000-04:00Here's what one of Craigs' constituents had to say...Here's what one of Craigs' constituents had to say about <A HREF="http://www.pensitoreview.com/2007/08/27/ultra-right-sen-craig-sentenced-for-lewd-behavior-in-mens-room/" REL="nofollow">him</A>:<BR/><BR/><B>I’m an Idahoan, and we’ve known for years that Senator Craig is gay. Farmers know it, business men and women know it; everyone knows it, he’s known as “Idaho’s gay Senator.” But he’s Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-5588909011740702822007-09-01T15:45:00.000-04:002007-09-01T15:45:00.000-04:00Well, he did out himself with something analogous ...Well, he did out himself with something analogous to having sex on the sidewalk, but it's not that others didn't try, such as the aforementioned gay leftist blogger, and the Idaho Statesman newspaper.<BR/><BR/>I can't find much that Craig said or did politically except opposition to gay marriage [with an apparent openness to civil unions] and objections to entering sexual preference into hate Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-59605271994763425382007-09-01T10:11:00.000-04:002007-09-01T10:11:00.000-04:00It's irrational to ban sex on the sidewalk, too, I...<I>It's irrational to ban sex on the sidewalk, too, I suppose. </I><BR/><BR/>No, most reasonable persons would agree with Mrs. Patrick Campbells' remark, "As long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."<BR/><BR/><B>If somebody wants to be closeted, most people are willing to honor that.</B><BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, in this case Craig outed himself, what the Brits call an 'own Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-66134599950715032662007-08-31T15:48:00.000-04:002007-08-31T15:48:00.000-04:00It's irrational to ban sex on the sidewalk, too, I...It's irrational to ban sex on the sidewalk, too, I suppose. Everybody seems to draw their line, just a question of where.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-77260700908553451542007-08-30T21:11:00.000-04:002007-08-30T21:11:00.000-04:00I don't really care much about this issue...but on...I don't really care much about this issue...but one interesting point here is that the GOP can't live up to its own irrational, puritanical standards.<BR/><BR/>Now, when someone advocates one standard and lives another, it might be that their standard is right but they suffer from weakness of will. There are several other possibilities, but one is that, in their heart of hearts, they recognize Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-15198928608986104502007-08-30T17:57:00.000-04:002007-08-30T17:57:00.000-04:00But Jim, the "actions" are not synonymous with Cra...But Jim, the "actions" are not synonymous with Craig's "sexuality." This is the conflation.<BR/><BR/>Or we might say, Craig's sin is getting caught, which makes it a legal/prudential issue, not a moral one. I think Republicans stand on their heads to avoid and sexual-preference McCarthyism.<BR/><BR/>Which brings us to<BR/><BR/><I>"insist[ance] that Rogers had reached a new and despicable low in Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-27036304071088814922007-08-29T22:41:00.000-04:002007-08-29T22:41:00.000-04:00Ooops --- hit "post" too soon!So, I now agree with...Ooops --- hit "post" too soon!<BR/><BR/>So, I now agree with Tom's statement that:<BR/><I>"But it's certainly possible that some have wanted it both ways, tho I don't see it here. Greenwald's condemnation of them as "how the right-wing movement works" is a bit glib and universal, tho."</I><BR/><BR/>The only example given by Greenwald of someone who "wants it both ways" is Barnett, who claimed, inJim Baleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322487665818601057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-68448291211724662762007-08-29T22:36:00.000-04:002007-08-29T22:36:00.000-04:00I went through Glenn Greenwald's post on Sen. Crai...I went through Glenn Greenwald's post on Sen. Craig yet again, and have concluded that the post fails to support his premise that:<BR/><BR/>There is a trend among right-wing commenters to denounce Craig now for his sexual actions (because it is politically safe to do so) when the same commenters were claiming that Craig's sexuality was irrelevant in the face of the same accusations during the Jim Baleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322487665818601057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-82299336930454148922007-08-29T18:52:00.000-04:002007-08-29T18:52:00.000-04:00Well, I don't read it that way---the objection was...Well, I don't read it that way---the objection was to "outing" Craig for political reasons. But it's certainly possible that some have wanted it both ways, tho I don't see it here. Greenwald's condemnation of them as "how the right-wing movement works" is a bit glib and universal, tho. The comments he attempts to fisk are from mere bloggers after all, (altho some think blogs are the real worldTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-56044113971195393512007-08-29T18:00:00.000-04:002007-08-29T18:00:00.000-04:00Tom asserts that:[Greenwald] conflates the gay asp...Tom asserts that:<BR/><I>[Greenwald] conflates the gay aspect with the cruising for sex in a public restroom aspect. </I><BR/><BR/>I fear Tom may have missed the thrust of Greenwald's argument.<BR/><BR/>1) In October of 2006, during the election campaign, several prominent conservatives asserted that the "report about Craig was completely irrelevant even if it were true, because it was only aboutJim Baleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322487665818601057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-33445321346091995642007-08-29T16:12:00.000-04:002007-08-29T16:12:00.000-04:00Yeah, well, I get weak sometimes.I must object to ...Yeah, well, I get weak sometimes.<BR/><BR/>I must object to Greenwald, as usual. He conflates the gay aspect with the cruising for sex in a public restroom aspect. The calls on the right for his resignation are due to the latter. (Puzzlingly, Greenwald, in fairness reports that that's exactly what folks on the right are saying, then proceeds to ignore the words in front of his very own face.<Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-57794204361092299282007-08-29T12:31:00.000-04:002007-08-29T12:31:00.000-04:00Did you see Glenn Greenwald's summary of conservat...Did you see <A HREF="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/28/craig/index.html" REL="nofollow">Glenn Greenwald's</A> summary of conservative flip-flops over Sen. Craig?<BR/><BR/><I>The reaction to the Larry Craig story provides one of the most vivid illustrations yet of how the right-wing movement works. Last October, just weeks before the midterm election, gay activist Mike Rogers Jim Baleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09322487665818601057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-5291618673669371562007-08-28T16:58:00.000-04:002007-08-28T16:58:00.000-04:00Actually, family values needs to bifurcate the fam...Actually, family values needs to bifurcate the family and the sexual relationship of the spouses. Preserving the structure is more important than having the hots for each other.<BR/><BR/>Of course, and what will be lost in all this, is that the 2008 presidential candidate who by far endured the most to preserve their family is...Hillary Clinton.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-6727529645490503802007-08-28T08:12:00.000-04:002007-08-28T08:12:00.000-04:00I want a list of all the anti-gay, pro-"family val...I want a list of all the anti-gay, pro-"family values" Republicans that have been found to be gay and soliciting sex from minors, in bathrooms, through escort services, etc.<BR/><BR/>It'd probably blow your mind.<BR/><BR/>No pun intended.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.com