tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post113890428784352524..comments2024-03-13T12:14:28.146-04:00Comments on Philosoraptor: Winston Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139345228902772282006-02-07T15:47:00.000-05:002006-02-07T15:47:00.000-05:00Well, I defend Smith because he's a far more intui...Well, I defend Smith because he's a far more intuitive and informal thinker than he's given credit for. The starting point for his "inquiry" (in the subtitle of <I>Wealth of Nations</I>) is always human nature. Unlike Marx' "manifesto," he does not contemplate "educating" man out of it, nor the possibility of ever doing so.<BR/><BR/>It's easy to see failings in everything; the failings of the Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139340146713846182006-02-07T14:22:00.000-05:002006-02-07T14:22:00.000-05:00Hey I could be wrong too. Have been MANY times. ...Hey I could be wrong too. Have been MANY times. <BR/><BR/>I just have a feeling that what Clark wants to do, which based on my reading of his more detailed proposals I agree with, will be distorted and incorrectly received by the public at large.<BR/><BR/>If it isn't, I think that people will like what they see. Polling based on issue positions seems to indicate that the Democrats' positions Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139339922492138882006-02-07T14:18:00.000-05:002006-02-07T14:18:00.000-05:00I don't remember saying all that. Certainly Adam S...I don't remember saying all that. Certainly Adam Smith does not. I do find Gen. Clark's ideas about "harnessing" private enterprise for the "public good" as statist, and I don't think that's what America wants.<BR/><BR/>I could be wrong. Obviously some of America does.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139332193983366592006-02-07T12:09:00.000-05:002006-02-07T12:09:00.000-05:00Ditto Winston. The whole point is that someone or...Ditto Winston. <BR/><BR/>The whole point is that someone or something needs to set the ground rules and provide the infrastructure on which free markets are not only possible but can thrive; government is the only institution that has ever been able to do this. Libertarians would set this boundary low. European liberals would set it high. It's really more of a continuum than a set of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139326317987378332006-02-07T10:31:00.000-05:002006-02-07T10:31:00.000-05:00"...corporations and the rich are smarter than us...."...corporations and the rich are smarter than us..."<BR/><BR/>Har har har... Good one.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, again, Tom: you keep talking about eliminating capitalism--NOBODY HERE IS ARGUING FOR THAT. It's a straw man.<BR/><BR/>There are more options than (a) socialism and (b) unbridled plutocracy.Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139259728351190312006-02-06T16:02:00.000-05:002006-02-06T16:02:00.000-05:00You sound like Adam Smith, except you would replac...You <A HREF="http://www.adamsmith.org/index.php/quotes/category/select/Monopolies%20and%20cartels/" REL="nofollow">sound like Adam Smith</A>, except you would replace the Invisible Hand with our heavy one.<BR/><BR/>But as previously noted, per Smith, both the rich and poor are smarter than us. "Laissez-faire" is not a philosophy, only an acknowledgement of that fact.<BR/><BR/>(After long Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139244239197864072006-02-06T11:43:00.000-05:002006-02-06T11:43:00.000-05:00"The management of "big corporations" often cuts c..."The management of "big corporations" often cuts corners in pursuit of profit, but in the end, we are them and they are us."<BR/><BR/>This is the crux of where I think you're misguided. If we take the premise that 'the market' will be the great arbitrator, the central failing is that, unlike government, I have no guaranteed power or rights to lay claim on it. In fact, power over the market is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139219589539640912006-02-06T04:53:00.000-05:002006-02-06T04:53:00.000-05:00I apologize in advance that I will neither be buyi...I apologize in advance that I will neither be buying nor reading Kevin Phillips' book, LC. First of all, the odds of someone spending their hard-earned coin on a book that will nauseate them, even based on the recommendation of someone whom they respect, is a little less likely than Philosoraptor reading that Bible he gleefully snarfed compliments of the Gideons at the Holiday Inn on Rte. 78 in Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139218262778881652006-02-06T04:31:00.000-05:002006-02-06T04:31:00.000-05:00Please at least acknowledge my central thesis, tha...Please at least acknowledge my central thesis, that corporations, the rich, and any other objects of handy derision are essentially not subjects of moral concern.<BR/><BR/>The pension plans of both individuals and unions depend on their stock holdings. In fact, the holding of stock is an essential difference between Marx' (and Adam Smith's) day and our own.<BR/><BR/>The management of "big Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139169016822375282006-02-05T14:50:00.000-05:002006-02-05T14:50:00.000-05:00Also re this:"I see corporations and the rich as g...Also re this:<BR/><BR/>"I see corporations and the rich as golden gooses. They are smarter than us, or at least can afford lawyers who are. And if an equitable economic climate does not exist, they pick up and go elsewhere."<BR/><BR/>I say fine. Let 'em go. Just as long as they're not allowed to call on our courts to enforce their contracts, our treasury for subsidies, nor on our armed forces Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139168841559486062006-02-05T14:47:00.000-05:002006-02-05T14:47:00.000-05:00Tom, I find that to be a strawman. Mostly because...Tom, <BR/><BR/>I find that to be a strawman. Mostly because not many of us liberals, at least those like me, are arguing against capitalism per se. The point is one of regulation.<BR/><BR/>Smith's marketplace was not one dominated by large, amoral corporate institutions, but one populated by merchants, entrepreneurs and local business people. The problem comes when corporations become so Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139090857289698752006-02-04T17:07:00.000-05:002006-02-04T17:07:00.000-05:00I guess what I'm getting at the difference between...I guess what I'm getting at the difference between the government exercising eminent domain on your house to build a Wal-Mart, and just exercising eminent domain on the Wal-Mart.<BR/><BR/>I see corporations and the rich as golden gooses. They are smarter than us, or at least can afford lawyers who are. And if an equitable economic climate does not exist, they pick up and go elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139080059453642812006-02-04T14:07:00.000-05:002006-02-04T14:07:00.000-05:00The point I intended to make in my previous commen...The point I intended to make in my previous comments is simply that there is in fact a moral aspect to economic policy which stands contrary to the profit motive. For example, if a person needs a certain medication or procedure to survive then those who can supply those medical benefits are in a position which can be, and often is abused by charging exorbitant prices. I don't know what kind of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139079229999918742006-02-04T13:53:00.000-05:002006-02-04T13:53:00.000-05:00Uh, it's really weird to suggest that Wes Clark is...Uh, it's really weird to suggest that Wes Clark is anti-capitalist. Nobody's suggesting that we eliminate the profit motive. But the profit motive still operates even without obscene profits.<BR/><BR/>Those who are more capable of doing certain tasks the country needs done are often called on to carry more of the relevant burden. Young men are better fighters than old men and females; they Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139066622271054592006-02-04T10:23:00.000-05:002006-02-04T10:23:00.000-05:00Sorry. Bad link.http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/200...Sorry. Bad link.<BR/><BR/>http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/01/why_oh_why_are__10.html<BR/><BR/>There are also a lot of good discussions behind the link near the bottom for 'Economics: Health'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139063637485890232006-02-04T09:33:00.000-05:002006-02-04T09:33:00.000-05:00One thing I don't understand, Tom, is why you crit...One thing I don't understand, Tom, is why you criticize both the 'overuse' of our system which drives up its costs and the Canadian and British models which involve longer waits for less serious procedures yet provide everybody with timely preventive care and severe illness care. Seems to me, you would be more disposed to those models if you wanted to relieve the pressure on the system created Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139041711446862202006-02-04T03:28:00.000-05:002006-02-04T03:28:00.000-05:00Well, we're running a bit far afield. My point wa...Well, we're running a bit far afield. My point was that despite the blather about "45 million uninsured," there does exist a safety net. But neither do I want the safety net to choke the whole magilla.<BR/><BR/>By coincidence, before his unfortunate affliction, that same friend put up with the crappy county system to set a broken leg he got while skiiing, because he didn't want to pay, althoughTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139029444779509132006-02-04T00:04:00.000-05:002006-02-04T00:04:00.000-05:00And just out of curiosity, do you think that the t...And just out of curiosity, do you think that the treatment your friend got that "didn't cost him a penny" was not paid for, by anyone?<BR/><BR/>If you live in the same county, you helped pay for it. You paid for the medication and the treating physician. As did all of your neighbors. <BR/><BR/>Somewhere, somehow, somebody always pays. Either it's paid by government, through tax revenue, or Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139028687851551932006-02-03T23:51:00.000-05:002006-02-03T23:51:00.000-05:00"I'm glad, and you can tax me as much as you want ..."I'm glad, and you can tax me as much as you want to keep his non-elastic demand supplied."<BR/><BR/>Great. Then I assume you won't mind if I tax you less than *as much as I want*, because a single payer can give him his AIDS treatments for less.<BR/><BR/>And if you think you can tax me "as much as you want" (or make my premiums "as much as you want), rather than the smaller sum that would be Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139028198767516632006-02-03T23:43:00.000-05:002006-02-03T23:43:00.000-05:00Truly needed care is taken care of by the county h...Truly needed care is taken care of by the county health systems.<BR/><BR/>I know because I drove my friend for his AIDS treatments that didn't cost him a penny.<BR/><BR/>He's still alive after 10 years. I'm glad, and you can tax me as much as you want to keep his non-elastic demand supplied.<BR/><BR/>But if you're saying that the rest of the human race is here for the purpose of fulfilling your Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139027168102349432006-02-03T23:26:00.000-05:002006-02-03T23:26:00.000-05:00I would also add that two (related) reasons the pr...I would also add that two (related) reasons the private sector can't deliver health care as efficiently as the public are:<BR/><BR/>1. Private insurance distorts the feedback loop by which price affects buying decisions. Once the premium is paid, very little attention is paid to the remuneration paid by the plan to the provider.<BR/><BR/>2. There is no elasticity in demand for truly needed careAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139026740121785392006-02-03T23:19:00.000-05:002006-02-03T23:19:00.000-05:00Examples of people working hard for the "faceless ...Examples of people working hard for the "faceless public good": soldiers, MLK, Gandhi, Manhattan Project, firefighters, astronauts, teachers, among many others.<BR/><BR/>The profit motive can work against innovation too. Your insulin delivery system is a perfect example. That system requires constant maintenance and frequent replacement, guaranteeing the voracious consumption of means/capital.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1139017449742829552006-02-03T20:44:00.000-05:002006-02-03T20:44:00.000-05:00Yes, Tony, but I try anyway.J, Adam Smith quite ac...Yes, Tony, but I try anyway.<BR/><BR/>J, Adam Smith quite acknowledges the problem with capitalism, which is the same of any system, economic or otherwise---the concentration of power. He is anti-monopolistic, and sees both the utilitarian and moral value of looking after the poor. He's really quite a softy.<BR/><BR/>But where capitalism has the capacity to be carnivorous, Marxism/statism is Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1138984574794811622006-02-03T11:36:00.000-05:002006-02-03T11:36:00.000-05:00What do you call the belief that government ought ...<I>What do you call the belief that government ought to be as weak as possible in all spheres except except the application or threatened application of violence, where it should be as powerful as possible?</I><BR/><BR/>Republicanism, of course.Orlando C. Harnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02256544298448586167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-1138977358878413102006-02-03T09:35:00.000-05:002006-02-03T09:35:00.000-05:00What J said. And mmmmm...pizza.What J said. And mmmmm...pizza.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com