tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post4772006425040972346..comments2024-03-26T12:23:29.784-04:00Comments on Philosoraptor: Winston Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-28167975744887734042007-02-15T00:27:00.000-05:002007-02-15T00:27:00.000-05:00It's a sad inidication of how bad things have gott...It's a sad inidication of how bad things have gotten in the Middle East when Hamas has the influence in Palestinian society it now has. Ditto with Hezbollah in Lebanon. In any case, I agree 100 percent that Hamas is one of the primary reasons that a future peace process is hard to imagine. At the same time, my point is just that, in the past, the Palestinians have been more than eager to Joe the Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11309208261956958264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-31812663381787129292007-02-14T23:10:00.000-05:002007-02-14T23:10:00.000-05:00Jared, you're right, but part of the problem, as I...Jared, you're right, but part of the problem, as I mentioned before, is the fractile nature of Palestinian politics. <BR/><BR/>That accord was signed by Yasir Arafat on behalf of the PLO, neither of which really exist anymore. And my understanding of the recent problems between Fatah and Hamas is the former's inability to bring the latter into the fold as far as abiding by agreements reached byAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-74784901116859656222007-02-14T23:03:00.000-05:002007-02-14T23:03:00.000-05:00TVD,The best documentation I can offer on the fly ...TVD,<BR/><BR/>The best documentation I can offer on the fly about the Palestinians having recognized Israel is Wikipedia:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_AccordsJoe the Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11309208261956958264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-64274092397746833682007-02-14T22:48:00.000-05:002007-02-14T22:48:00.000-05:00Here, so you can stop purposely playing dumb:http:...Here, so you can stop purposely playing dumb:<BR/><BR/>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/documents/us_iran_1roadmap.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-74778956831895650502007-02-14T22:08:00.000-05:002007-02-14T22:08:00.000-05:00Well, you can start with what they explicitly aske...Well, you can start with what they explicitly asked for in the communiques mentioned in the Newsweek piece, as well as the obvious help they need with their withering economy.<BR/><BR/>This is getting absurd. You can discount all day whether they're serious or genuine or whether they were speaking in tongues when they sought contacts and diplomacy, but it's all pointless conjecture because our Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-82357330681265063802007-02-14T17:23:00.000-05:002007-02-14T17:23:00.000-05:00You have no idea what they want? None?You have no idea what they want? None?Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-35662905453868501852007-02-14T12:12:00.000-05:002007-02-14T12:12:00.000-05:00The point is that the 1994 Agreed Framework kept t...The point is that the 1994 Agreed Framework kept them from making nukes for 8 years. I agree that it wasn't perfect; specifically, the 'verify' part of trust, but verify wasn't strong enough. But it was better than letting them acquire a few nukes. Even kicking the can down the road is better than that.<BR/><BR/>As to Iran, I'm very impressed that you're such a skilled mind-reader that you Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-34148342338734863962007-02-13T23:43:00.000-05:002007-02-13T23:43:00.000-05:00Demonization.The rest has some good points, but I'...Demonization.<BR/><BR/>The rest has some good points, but I'm exhausted negotiating the cowpies. I've been far more diplomatic towards you than you've given back, and our dispassionate readers, if there are any, are invited to examine the record.<BR/><BR/>As for your philosophy of negotiation, which has become the core issue, I'm beginning to suspect there are no liberals on the World Poker TourTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-58375640755382103592007-02-13T22:50:00.000-05:002007-02-13T22:50:00.000-05:00Yes, it's clearly true. Georgie wants to SOUND li...Yes, it's clearly true. Georgie wants to SOUND like St. Ronnie, but when the rubber meets the road and its time for diplomacy, Deadeye Dick's foul ideology rears its wretched head:<BR/><BR/>http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/2007/02/worst_speech_ever/<BR/><BR/>Some choice excerpts from the Newsweek piece Matt links to:<BR/><BR/>"After September 11 in particular, relations grew warmer than Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-81768596067959138802007-02-13T22:21:00.000-05:002007-02-13T22:21:00.000-05:00"I'm saying the same thing. If you observe the Ara..."I'm saying the same thing. If you observe the Arabs' style, sometimes refusing to negotiate for awhile yields the best results, as it makes the other side more pliable."<BR/><BR/>Examples, please? Since sometimes all refusing to negotiate does is make the other side dig in its heels and become more obstinate. And perhaps its instructive to remember that the Iranians are Persians, not Arabs. <Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-55633836323366248542007-02-13T18:49:00.000-05:002007-02-13T18:49:00.000-05:00And BTW, charging me with sophistry might be a bit...And BTW, charging me with sophistry might be a bit of misdirection on your own part, away from the fact you don't seem to have a satisfactory response for the analogous situation of bombing Saddam's nuclear program.<BR/><BR/>Just a thought.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-62226785077409971982007-02-13T18:42:00.000-05:002007-02-13T18:42:00.000-05:00I'm saying the same thing. If you observe the Ara...I'm saying the same thing. If you observe the Arabs' style, sometimes refusing to negotiate for awhile yields the best results, as it makes the other side more pliable.<BR/><BR/>This is what I meant about diplomacy becoming an end in itself. One size doesn't fit all.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-83653951689721068312007-02-13T17:24:00.000-05:002007-02-13T17:24:00.000-05:00I'm not talking about Israel and Saddam's nuclear ...I'm not talking about Israel and Saddam's nuclear program, but thanks for the misdirection towards false dichotomy anyway. Sometimes diplomacy can work, sometimes it can't. One thing is logically certain, however: you can't know for sure unless you try it. <BR/><BR/>Try treating each case as sui generis, maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-54789954443329209472007-02-13T17:01:00.000-05:002007-02-13T17:01:00.000-05:00I think that's a slander and a demonization, mysel...I think that's a slander and a demonization, myself.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Iran (and therefore Ahmadinejad) is having economic troubles. To rescue him now is foolish. Never interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake. When it's Iran begging for talks, perhaps the time will be right.<BR/><BR/>As to Israel, do you believe that it could have accomplished diplomatically what it did by bombing Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-69604028688442765052007-02-13T13:38:00.000-05:002007-02-13T13:38:00.000-05:00Setting aside the I-P conflict which carries immen...Setting aside the I-P conflict which carries immense complications, the worst of which I belive, as I pointed out before, is the lack of a unified Palestinian *side* that can function as a counterparty in negotiations, I think the situation WRT to Iran might be relatively easier.<BR/><BR/>TVD, you seem to be purposely missing what Iran could gain from rapprochement with the US and the West. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-82022186790643031192007-02-13T02:01:00.000-05:002007-02-13T02:01:00.000-05:00The idea that the Palestinians under Arafat didn't...<I>The idea that the Palestinians under Arafat didn't compromise with Israel is absurd.</I><BR/><BR/>Absurd? Strong rhetoric.<BR/><BR/><I>Fatah agreed to recognize Israel to make way for the Oslo accords, then they agreed to settle for 22% of pre-1948 Palestine.</I><BR/><BR/>This is an interesting assertion, Jared. Please, and I mean this unsnarkily, do bring me up to speed. Has any PalestinianTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-84656787111084762202007-02-12T22:31:00.000-05:002007-02-12T22:31:00.000-05:00The idea that the Palestinians under Arafat didn't...The idea that the Palestinians under Arafat didn't compromise with Israel is absurd. Fatah agreed to recognize Israel to make way for the Oslo accords, then they agreed to settle for 22% of pre-1948 Palestine. Now, we could debate all day who was to blame for the failure of the Clinton talks, but one thing no one can debate: Israel was founded on the settlement of an Arab country and the promisesJoe the Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11309208261956958264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-55224718529287809042007-02-12T22:03:00.000-05:002007-02-12T22:03:00.000-05:00All of those negotiations have not changed one iot...All of those negotiations have not changed one iota what the final agreement will look like. That's what's so frustrating about the situation. Everybody knows it's going to be something like Israel's withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders with financial compensation to the Palestinians in exchange for recognition of Israel and security guarantees, something which has been offered time and again. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-28268100284312525962007-02-12T16:48:00.000-05:002007-02-12T16:48:00.000-05:00There's a downside to negotiating when the other p...There's a downside to negotiating when the other party is not working in good faith. Israel has already shown its cards with the Clinton go-round; the Palestinians have already won concessions that will serve as the baseline for the next go-round, without yielding a single concession themselves. To date.<BR/><BR/>We should learn something from that.<BR/><BR/>Your $2B argument is a good responseTom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-10570931150042471452007-02-12T15:57:00.000-05:002007-02-12T15:57:00.000-05:00A quick reading of my earlier post about your ill-...A quick reading of my earlier post about your ill-drawn conclusions about past negotiations dictating the progress of future ones as well as the $2B+ of aid that flows from the US to Egypt shows that both your most recent post, and the fevered rantings of Bernard Lewis are both twaddle. <BR/><BR/>The resumption of aid that was at least implicitly contingent on Egypt making nice with Israel was Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-27197692494323280892007-02-12T13:16:00.000-05:002007-02-12T13:16:00.000-05:00Yes, it's unalloyed Carterism, which consists of m...Yes, it's unalloyed Carterism, which consists of making consessions to bad guys. Even its achievments are accidental:<BR/><BR/><I>"If you go back to the Egyptian peace process, Sadat didn't decide to make peace because he was suddenly convinced of the merits of the Zionist case. Sadat decided to make peace because he realized that Egypt was becoming a Soviet colony. <BR/><BR/>The process was Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-17967375978482354192007-02-11T21:17:00.000-05:002007-02-11T21:17:00.000-05:00You can read back over the thousands of words in t...You can read back over the thousands of words in this thread to get an idea of my strategy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-30898182079268111222007-02-11T17:41:00.000-05:002007-02-11T17:41:00.000-05:00Sorry, I thought I was presenting an evenhanded ac...Sorry, I thought I was presenting an evenhanded account.<BR/><BR/>Please do expound on your strategy.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-30857089461626305132007-02-11T17:36:00.000-05:002007-02-11T17:36:00.000-05:00The problem with your thesis is that it has no bas...The problem with your thesis is that it has no basis in reality. Ahmedinejad's remarks (those in question, as well as many other inflamatory others) were made five months BEFORE the most recent Israeli elections. <BR/><BR/>And I'm sure Likud would win today, based on those polls. And Hillary would defeat Rudy or McCain, based on our most recent polls. Righty-o.<BR/><BR/>And for some of us it'sAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5264937.post-66847254828124919092007-02-11T04:29:00.000-05:002007-02-11T04:29:00.000-05:00I meself took the occasion to attempt get up to sp...I meself took the occasion to attempt get up to speed on "the question" of Israel. My perceptions were apparently out of date. I didn't have a handle on what Wes Clark and Mr. Anonymous were talking about. <BR/><BR/>It turns out they and many others are talking in the same vein, albeit mostly in America.<BR/><BR/>On the other side, I was surprised to learn that Binyamin Netanyahu and the Likud Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com